[00:00:01] Speaker A: It was back when I worked in the industry and we were starting the trade association. There were companies that were doing some pretty gimmicky marketing, you know, and so over the years, just hearing the stories of people where they were told something that turned out not to be true, or the system was designed in such a way that it's never going to live up to what it was promised to do. So just trying to help make sure that accurate numbers are out there.
[00:00:29] Speaker B: Hey, there, it's Ramsey here.
[00:00:30] Speaker C: That was Dever Hafner Ratliff. Devor has a unique perspective. She grew up in the solar industry because her dad is a longtime solar installer. Devor started in the family business, went on to state government, and now works for a public utility. But Dever has also created a novel web service called Solarquotecheck.com comma, where homeowners and homebuyers can verify and validate the quotes and claims that they get from solar installers. We spoke about the current state of the residential solar market, the need for consumer protection, and our sunny long term.
[00:01:00] Speaker B: Outlook for solar energy.
[00:01:01] Speaker C: Let's jump in. Hi, Dever.
[00:01:03] Speaker B: How are you doing today?
[00:01:06] Speaker A: I'm good. It's starting to get to be that nice summer weather. So really excited about that.
[00:01:12] Speaker B: Oh, man, I'm so ready for it.
Well, thank you so much for joining me today for this discussion about the status of the residential solar industry and marketing here and now where we are in the spring of 2024.
You know, you've been aware of and involved with solar pretty much your whole life, right? Since your dad is one of the OG solar installer pioneers here in Washington state.
What was that like? What was it like growing up in the solar industry?
[00:01:44] Speaker A: It's a really good question.
Yeah. So my dad started a installation company, officially launched in like, 2007, but had been doing some research on it, and it very quickly became a family endeavor.
Our house landline was the official listed phone number for the business. So you had to answer the home phone very professionally and all of that. And it was a really interesting opportunity to just not only learn business and what it was like to help run a business, but also the solar industry, which was very, very young at that time, especially in Washington state. So for me, it started off with just kind of helping however I could because it was how we were going to pay the bills and eventually grew with the business. And as the business grew, was able to take on more responsibilities all the way up to helping start the trade association for the state. So it was a really great experience to get to just learn and grow as the industry grew.
[00:02:52] Speaker B: Yeah, that's awesome. So fast forwarding to today, how is the residential solar market in the industry different than it was back in the day when you were in the day to day of the solar company?
[00:03:13] Speaker A: In some ways, it is very, very different, but it's also exactly the same. So you still have installers that are working with their clients to install solar on their houses. A lot of the incentives and programs out there haven't changed. But what has changed is it's no longer an industry of passion exclusively like I think it was for many years. Now we're starting to see more companies start because they see it as lucrative business and the profitability of it. So you're seeing, I think, not necessarily a decline in those who are in the industry for environmental morals, personal beliefs, wanting to do better for the planet, the environment.
Those people are still there, but we're seeing more companies that are really, unfortunately, just kind of in it for the money. And so that's creating an interesting dynamic for consumers trying to figure out which companies fall into which categories.
[00:04:18] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, that's a really great way to say it, I think, because I. So I've been in solar that long or longer and very much like you said, I like how you characterize that as in it, you know, for the passion of solar. But then others came in for other reasons as well. So, you know, back in, like, the 2010s, it seems like everybody from the installers to the people who were seriously considering doing solar were doing it because they really wanted to.
But then at some point over the years, it became, you know, a really lucrative opportunity. And then a whole bunch of new sort of players entered the market specifically for that purpose. What kind of an impact do you think that's had as that was taking place, you know, coming up to you today?
[00:05:14] Speaker A: Oh, that's a good question. I think if anything, it's hurt the industry in a lot of ways. And I'm sure that you've seen this from the perspectives that you've worked in with the industry as well, where if you can't tell or you don't know what the metrics are to judge a company by, you're kind of having to guess. And so there's this perception that I think is slowly starting to wear away where it's. It's all renewable energy is good. All renewable energy installers are good. And there's starting, I think, to be more realization that that's not necessarily true.
So I hear from people all the time where just the assumption is that now solar is a scam or solar is bad or solar doesn't work. And unfortunately, that's because you've got these companies that really aren't doing it for the love of solar. They're doing it to make money. And that's, I think, overall hurting the industry and making it more difficult to get some people on board with the idea of transitioning to renewable energy because they've seen those bad stories, essentially.
[00:06:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, you recently created and founded a company and website called Solarquotecheck.com. And I'm starting to think that this may have something you, you know, very much to do with what we were talking about. But what does the website do? And, you know, why and how is it important?
[00:06:47] Speaker A: Thanks. Yeah, so over the years, I've seen these instances of just bad solar experiences that people have had. Whether it was back when I worked in the industry and we were starting the trade association, there were companies that were doing some pretty gimmicky marketing. You know, sign up today and get a free solar panel. Well, what does that actually mean? Are you actually getting a good deal all the way through door to door sales becoming more prevalent when it comes to solar? And so over the years, just hearing the stories of people where they were told something that turned out not to be true, or the system was designed in such a way that it's never going to live up to what it was promised to do, wanting to help people navigate those situations and also hopefully avoid those situations in the first place. So over the years, I've had lots of friends ask me, like, hey, I got this quote for solar. What do you think? What is this company's background? Is this a good price? Kind of questions?
And just realized that there's more people out there who could benefit from that information.
And, you know, I think we see it with a lot of different stories that have happened over the years where it's just the, the people who know solar typically have a financial interest in whether or not you, the consumer, purchases solar. You know, they're a salesperson getting a commission, or they are part of the marketing team or whatever you had. So I realized that I, I wanted to be able to help people with the knowledge I had. And I think it can be extra valuable because I don't have a financial interest in whether or not someone actually buys solar. I end up telling more people, like, you know, this might actually not be the right investment for you right now. When we look at the numbers or look at the energy production, because unfortunately, there are a lot of installers who are, I won't even say being optimistic, who are lying about the potential for energy savings and return on investment with solar. So just trying to help make sure that accurate numbers are out there.
[00:09:01] Speaker B: Yeah. And you have some professional distance from being part of a solar company at this point. Right. Because you spent several years at the state of Washington in a variety of different positions, and your day job these days is with a public utility district here in Washington.
How has sort of working in the industry but not for a company, sort of given you a different perspective?
[00:09:30] Speaker A: Yeah. So I left the industry in 2015 and went to work for the Washington state agency that actually regulates electrical contractors and electrical permitting, which is where solar falls in our state. And so it was a really great experience to not just learn more about the various laws and policies and interpretations that can lead to enforcement, but also realizing that there's a lot of nuance to how you navigate those regulatory things. So if you're somebody who's filing a complaint because it turned out your contractor wasn't a licensed electrician, how to report that, how to explain it? What laws to reference are all things that you really can't learn out of a textbook. And so working on that side of it was really, really helpful. And then working at the Department of Commerce, where the Washington State Energy Division energy office lives, was also a really good experience because I got to help navigate things like grant programs and state policy and make sure that there was a nexus between what it was the state was trying to achieve in terms of vision and policy, and that it was actually implementable, because that can sometimes be a gap. Right. And policy is, can you actually do the thing? And if you can't, the policy isn't gonna get you to your goals.
And then I've also worked on large scale renewable energy projects where state lands were being leased to renewable energy developers. And so that was a whole different perspective, a whole different scale of solar. And like you said. Yeah. Now I'm at a public utility district that provides electrical service to a southwest Washington county and working on not just renewable energy there, but overall grid reliance, policy, regulatory compliance.
And it all relates.
[00:11:24] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. You know, getting back to residential solar and sort of, you know, what is it about sort of the solar sales process that solar companies are using these days that makes it difficult and opaque for homeowners to really understand what it is that they're buying? Like, what's the greater need for a service like the one that your website does?
[00:11:54] Speaker A: Yeah. So it's unfortunate that it's even something that's needed.
I wish it wasn't. But the reality is that there has been a substantial increase in consumer protection complaints against solar companies, both nationally. And we've seen the same trend in Washington state, where I'm located, where it's just, it's essentially exponential increases in consumer protection complaints. And that's indicating to me that this problem's just getting worse. And so I think that the worst case example is that you're a homeowner, you have somebody knock on your door to sell you solar. And fast forwarding through some of the details they tell you you have to sign in order to get a site assessment or a quote to show you kind of what the real value would be for your home if that tree is going to create shading, those types of factors, and they'll often tell you that that contract is just to get that initial quote. Well, when you read through those contracts, then there's terms and conditions that basically say if you don't buy solar from that company, you can owe them, in some cases $10,000. So you end up in this position where you're financially on the hook if you don't move forward. And if you don't read the terms and conditions of that contract, you don't know that you're signing, agreeing to that.
And then those companies will turn around and give quotes that are significantly above what I'm going to say a fair price would be, because, you know, there's what we're willing to pay. But solar has had this reputation of being this expensive luxury item. Well, how do you define expensive and luxury? And what if you don't know that those prices have come down? What if you don't know that expensive and luxury is now $30,000, but somebody's given you a quote for 60, 70, $80,000, and because you've signed this contract that says that you're going to buy solar from them or you owe them money, you don't have time or opportunity to get a competitive quote, to get a comparative quote. So you end up stuck in this situation where you've essentially agreed to buy solar that's overpriced. And not every installer is doing this. There are some installers still that don't require any kind of signature or any kind of payment for a site survey, because really, without that information, you can't get a good, accurate quote. And so there's that factor where it's, it's, are you signing something and committing to something without realizing it. And the consequences of committing to that thing can be pretty expensive.
But then there's also instances both related to that type of contract signing process and just other processes in general, where how does anyone know what a solar array should be producing in our area? So installers will over exaggerate how much energy the system will produce. And if you aren't familiar with solar, if you don't know how to look at that calculation, all you can do is take the salesperson's word for it. The other one I see a lot is the calculation on energy savings using a statewide or a national average for the cost of energy. So I saw an example the other day where someone was given a quote which used fifteen cents a kilowatt hour as the rate, but they were in an area where their utility didn't even charge eight cents a kilowatt hour, so it was almost twice the energy savings that they would actually be able to achieve. And so there's things like that where to an average consumer, you might not know, you just have to trust the person who's giving you the information.
And unfortunately, most solar salespeople are paid on commission, and so they have a vested interest in trying to get you to sign and commit. And then on top of that, there are some companies that have clauses in the contract that say, we are not responsible for anything that your salesperson promised you. So the salesperson can tell you all of these things, and per the contract, you're not allowed to actually hold the company responsible if what you were promised isn't what comes to be.
[00:16:12] Speaker B: So it's very much buyer beware is kind of how you're describing the current state of doing the residential solar market. And, you know, dig into and read the contracts.
Are there any, you know, significant protections either in place or that are up and coming to and for consumers against predatory practices in the residential solar market?
[00:16:41] Speaker A: Yeah, so there's rules both state and federal across the country regarding loans. That's another place where solar can get really sticky, is how it's financed. There's also rules about cancellation, terms of contracts, false advertising, things like that. But what I've noticed is at no fault of their own. It can be hard for regulators to actually enforce based on those types of just generic general consumer protection rules because they run into the same lack of knowledge about solar as a consumer would. So an example the other day is I saw one where a system failed, and it turned out it failed because the inverter was undersized. So a primary component in the solar array that processes all of the energy and allows it to feed your house was undersized for the size of the solar panels, and so it caused the whole system to fail. Well, the installer was basically not taking responsibility for the fact that they did a bad design and told the enforcement agency that it was a fault with the inverter. And the enforcement agency doesn't know enough to know that that's not technically what happened. That what happened was that they designed the system poorly. There's some sticking points there, or consumers don't always know how to explain what's going on in terms of making it relate to the rules for things like consumer protection and advertising. And so now several states, Washington included, have passed consumer protections specifically to solar. So Washington state just this year passed consumer protection rule specific to solar. That goes into effect, I believe, in June.
And it outlines specific things that basically, if the solar installer, if the solar salesperson doesn't disclose these things, doesn't document these things, doesn't use analysis specific to your home, they're violating the Consumer Protection act. And that'll make it not only easier for consumers to report when there's a violation, it'll make it easier for an enforcement agency to identify when there is a violation. And it creates an easier path for individuals who end up in a bad situation to take action themselves with an attorney against the company.
[00:19:10] Speaker B: Yeah, you mentioned a little bit the way that financing works with residential solar. I was in that financing world for a little while. Let's talk for a minute about dealer fees.
What are dealer fees and why have most residential solar customers never heard of them?
And why do they need to know that dealer fees exist?
[00:19:40] Speaker A: Oh, goodness. We could do a whole hour conversation just on this, if it is okay. Can I ask you to explain dealer fees? Because I think you're going to be able to do that a lot more effectively than I could.
[00:19:51] Speaker B: Sure. So the way that solar is financed often in sort of the wide marketplace, is often through some third party finance kind of operations. And those are private companies, often brokers.
They're offering financing, but they package it up and sell it on to the open market. And the installers who are selling these projects, they basically have to pay a fee to have the privilege of offering that financing. That's why they call dealer fees. But these dealer fees are pretty variable in terms of how big and how significant they are.
It might be 1520, 25% of a project cost, but also if they want to get a really low interest rate for their customer, it might be 40 or more percent of the, basically the cost of the project.
And the installers are often not supposed to, or they don't disclose or describe or let the customers know that a very large part of what they're paying is basically going to go into the cost of the financing. And so there's been sort of an inside the industry kind of tug of war, I think, a lot, in a lot of cases between the credit unions who typically don't have dealer fees or they have really small dealer fees, and the more private financials who generally have significant dealer fees built into their business model, there's a tug of war around whether those dealer fees ought to be disclosed and how big they are and how they ought to be described. And that is part of the legislation in Washington. Right. In terms of what happens with those dealer fees, in terms of disclosures.
[00:22:01] Speaker A: Yep. The dealer fee has to be disclosed as well as how the loan is secured. So that's another thing that folks will often end up surprised about is they're told that there isn't a lien against their house on a lot of those loans, which technically isn't true, but there's a lien against the solar panels. And so if they go to sell their house or refinance, that still shows up affiliated with their address. And so under the new law, that and the dealer fee have to be, have to be disclosed upfront.
[00:22:34] Speaker B: Yeah. So before we get, you know, too negative around solar and the residential solar market, because that's not really my intention. I don't think it's yours either. Residential solar, it seems like, has gotten kind of a bad reputation in the last year or so. They've gotten some bad press, and the residential solar market has kind of slumped for the first time basically ever in the last two years. But I think the long term fundamentals are really strong, and solar energy has a tremendous amount of potential to continue to provide a large percentage of the energy that we use as a society on the electric grid. What do you think, where do you think that the residential solar market is going to go?
Is it something that is going to turn around over the course of the next 510 years? What do you think are some of the factors that are going to play into that? Like, you've got as good of a crystal ball as anybody, I think, after having worked in the industry and then also at the state and at the utility level, like, do you, where do you see it going in the near future?
[00:23:54] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think it's really going to be a regional. There's going to be regional differences. I'll say it that way. So if you're somewhere that has a lot of sunshine and really high utility rates, you know, you can have solar. That just makes sense regardless of if there are any programs available in your area. Whereas somewhere like western Washington, where I'm at, we have lower sunshine amounts and we have fairly inexpensive utility rates. And so there's got to be, in addition to those factors, then you've got to take into account what the policies are and what the social view of something like solar is to help balance it out.
You're going to probably also see a viewpoint difference on the individual level. Like we were talking about earlier. It used to be that people went solar really because they believed in the environmental benefits of it or the energy independence of it.
And then there was a time where more and more people were going solar because it was a lucrative investment with a good payback with energy savings. And now, now those things are starting to kind of, I think, flatten out a little bit. You know, the cost of solar is a lot less expensive. But there's also some states are rolling back their various programs and incentives for solar as deployment has taken off. And then the other thing is the grid in general, you know, solar only produces during the day. It can be weather variable. And so if you're in an area where your utility has the highest demand for energy during the summer, you're going to inherently have more benefit to renewable energy like solar in that area than you would in an area that has a winter peaking utility, where more energy is used during the winter. And the difference there is basically what's your heating source if you're an area that tends to use gas for heating versus electricity. And then the other thing is, what's the deployment of air conditioning look like? So there are some areas of the country where you have gas as your heat source during the winter, but then you have air conditioning all summer. And so that creates more need for that solar to be producing in those areas. So I think that you're going to end up seeing an overall increase in solar. You're going to end up seeing it being more accessible. You're going to end up seeing more information about what it does and how it works. But in terms of policy and incentives and programs, those are going to, I think, really be what drives things regionally, which will feed into a bunch of other things. Like Washington now has the Climate Commitment act and the Clean Energy Transformation act, which require renewable energy, reduced greenhouse gases. And so that's going to drive deployment regardless.
And then you've got some states that have programs that are starting to phase down, like California. They used to have a energy unit for energy unit credit program called net metering. And now they're scaling that back a little bit because they've got so much energy coming from solar during the day that they actually need more power at night. And so that also leads me to the next thing, which is storage. Storage is going to really have to start to be part of the conversation so that that energy that's produced during the day can be stored and used at night when there isn't solar energy being produced. So it's a really complex thing really quickly. But for the average consumer, it really just comes down to know what the programs and policies are in your area and do what you can to identify a company that's going to be honest and transparent with you about what the energy savings looks like, what the solar produce looks like, so that you can make sure you're making an accurate and informed decision.
[00:27:58] Speaker B: Yeah, well, those all actually sound like really good things to me.
I'm a big fan of nuance. You said, you mentioned nuance earlier. I think you're exactly right. It in terms of regions where you have lots of sunshine and high electricity rates, then solar just makes sense.
And subsidies are certainly going to be there. Subsidies are going to drive things, but they're often going to do that in sort of a temporary way and only as long as the subsidies are in place. And they're really intended to do that. Right. Like in subsidies, I think under the best of circumstances are intended to spur on innovation and to help an industry get to a place of maturity. It seems like solar is approaching much more maturity in the sense that the prices have come way down per watt and that they're cost effective in certain areas and in others not so much.
And like you said, you know, the sun only shines during the day and only in certain places is it really strong.
So energy storage, we're talking about battery systems, right? So batteries are also really interesting because they, you can have battery systems that are residential scale and, you know, right there in the house and they're combined with the solar system. But then if we're talking about building renewables like solar and wind into the grid at scale, then we need to be talking about massive battery storage.
You're at the pud. And how does electric utilities, how do electric utilities look at things like solar? Like what kind of challenges or opportunities arise from having many distributed points of solar energy coming onto the grid. What kind of, what does it look like from the utilities perspective?
[00:30:17] Speaker A: Yeah. And so, not speaking for any utility specifically, just talking about what I've learned and see from that myself personally, solar, solar has a lot of potential, because anytime the utility doesn't have to invest in infrastructure, they're saving money. It's, it's interesting. Utilities are, in some ways, some of the only businesses that don't want more customers. They don't want to make more sales, because if you have to invest in more infrastructure, that new infrastructure is the most expensive form of energy that you're going to have.
And so when a, when a residence, when a business installs solar panels, you are helping offset, set growing demand and things like that. The issue becomes the fact that in most areas, in my area specifically, when the solar energy produces, isn't when we need more power, isn't when power is being used. And so utilities are also having to look at how does solar interact with their systems overall. And so one thing that I find really interesting is if you look at a projection of electric vehicle charging, the time that a electric vehicle would charge at a workplace almost perfectly matches when solar energy produces. If you compare those two graphs. And so encouraging, like employers to offer EV charging and have solar on their building, is one way to make sure that those EV's aren't then getting charged. When the employee, when the employees get home, plug their car in, well, that's already when we're having the most energy consumed. And so looking at the big picture and taking a step back to figure out how do we use these different tools together to create the best benefit. And then also with solar, there's a lot of states that are starting to have environmental goals. And so if you're in an area where you've got coal or natural gas or other carbon intense energy sources, residential solar installations are starting to help reduce the reliance on those. But at the same time, kind of like how a battery stores energy, those types of power plants can be turned on and off as needed. And so it also creates an interesting conversation about, and what are we going to be, what are we going to use for power? Like, let's say there's a solar eclipse, which happens on occasion. How are we going to have enough energy available at that moment if the solar isn't producing is something that utilities also have to look at. The other thing I'll say is, you know, there are some states, Washington's one of them, where there's a essentially a mandate that utilities allow renewable energy to a certain point of their portfolio or at a volume or things like that. And so there are many utilities where even if they aren't super excited about solar because of whatever dynamics they might have going on, in some states, they're just required to allow you to install solar. So that's also a thing where I think the more solar gets installed, even the utilities that are nervous about it or aren't completely gung ho about it, we'll start to see how it actually works for them and impacts their grid. And my hope would be it gets them get some more on board with having more of it.
[00:33:47] Speaker B: Well, this podcast in general, it's called what's worthwhile? And it's a question that I'm asking myself a lot. You know, what's, what's important to focus on. And, you know, there's so much going on in the world today, there's so much that competes for our interest.
And, you know, I get the sense that you are, uh, in this industry and doing the things that you do, you know, for, for deeper reasons. And I think I would, I think I would be remiss if I didn't ask you the question directly, what's worthwhile? You know, what is it about solar or, you know, your work in general that makes it really important to you?
[00:34:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I've been really lucky where every job I've ever had is one where I really believe in kind of the mission and the outcome and what it is we're trying to achieve, whether it's renewable energy or being in public service. And so for me, the idea that you've got something like solar, where the panels are highly recyclable, where you're changing the economic dynamics of who produces energy and who gets paid to produce energy, and socializing that a little bit, spreading it out so that it's not all through one, in some cases, for profit energy company, and changing it so that the individual is now producing their own energy and has more control and independence over that type of energy, and then also, you know, the local jobs, you can't, you can't outsource construction, you can really only have people there at your home doing the installation. So all around the environmental impacts, the social impacts, the economic impacts, I just think it's solar specifically. It's a really great thing for making that transition towards a more sustainable future, not just in terms of our energy sustainability, but in terms of our overall communities.
[00:35:52] Speaker B: And what should be the take home message for people who are listening to this and they're considering solar, they're looking at maybe getting, you know, buying a system for their house or that they are looking at houses and some of them have solar and some don't. You know, what's your, what's your take home message to folks like that in terms of what they should do?
[00:36:18] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a great question. My hope would be that anyone who's looking at purchasing solar gets multiple quotes before they sign anything.
There are some, like free calculators online to get an estimate, and mostly those are lead generators. So really, the best way to get a solar quote is to look for a local installer.
There's trade associations in almost every state that have something like a code of ethics, and so the installers have to agree to those and follow those. So those tend to be the best companies to get estimates from. Our website also has a free calculator where no personal information is required. Because we aren't a lead generator, we aren't selling information. So that's another way to get kind of an estimate of what it should cost.
We can always look at someone's quote that they've gotten to help them determine if it's, if it's fair, if it's accurate. But then if you're looking at, I love the example of buying a house that has solar on it that you just shared, Ramsey, because there are more and more houses with solar on them, and houses tend to sell and new owners come in. And so how do you value that solar as part of the asset of the home? How do you determine, is it worth it to pay 30, 40, $50,000 more for that solar install? And the best thing you can do there is have a solar expert talk to you about that specific system.
How old is it? What's left on the warranty? Is it producing it pre performance? Those types of questions, we can do that to a certain extent. Some solar installers will do that. But you've got to bear in mind that solar installers still have somewhat of a vested interest in it. So if they tell you that the system is worth less, then that hypothetically devalues their own product. So just bear in mind that typically, when you're talking to someone about solar, they usually have some stake in the outcome one way or another. So that's where we want to help and be a resource for folks as well. Where we aren't trying to make a sales pitch for solar on top of sharing information.
[00:38:26] Speaker B: Where do they find you?
[00:38:28] Speaker A: Solarquotecheck.com.
[00:38:30] Speaker B: So solarquotecheck.com is the website. And Deborah, thank you so much for taking this time.
Really appreciate talking to you.
We've both kind of been at this game for quite a while and in different ways. And, you know, there's a whole lot of the solar market is going to come back and it's going to be a long term, you know, success, I believe. But it's at an interesting place right now. And, you know, people are certainly, you know, they have reason to be cautious, as in, like everything in life. So the fact that you put, you know, your professional energy into creating a resource that can help people to make good decisions, I think that's terrific. So thank you so much for your time today.
[00:39:25] Speaker A: Yeah, and thanks for inviting me, and thanks for the work on this podcast. I think. I think what's worthwhile is a really important question we should all be asking ourselves.
[00:39:35] Speaker B: Right on.
[00:39:36] Speaker C: Thank you for asking what's worthwhile? Visit whatsworthwhile.net to learn more about me, Ramsey Zimmerman, and please provide your name and email to become a supporter. I'm asking for prayer, advice, feedback, and connections. The what's worthwhile podcast is on Spotify, Apple, iheart, and Amazon. You can also
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