Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:11] Speaker B: What'S worthwhile healing Mind, body and spirit.
[00:00:14] Speaker C: I'm Ramsey Zimmerman.
[00:00:15] Speaker B: I choose peace of mind, vitality of body, and joy of spirit over stress, exhaustion, or overwhelm. Together, let's explore and pursue the many ways to build holistic health and wellness.
[00:00:32] Speaker A: I knew that I felt the most alive and the most used by him when I was leading worship. I just, I knew that worshiping and, and leading people in song, he designed me for it. One day I was at a rehearsal and I was playing an E5 chord and there was suddenly this shock of like electric power pain shooting through my. From my fingertips to my mouth. I've told people it's like a combination of scratching on a chalkboard with fingernails and biting down on tin foil. It was a very terrible jolt and it left my arm buzzing for a couple weeks, which turned into 15 years of not playing guitar.
[00:01:20] Speaker B: Hey there. It's Ramsey here. That was Tom Dykstra. Tom is a new friend of mine, a worship leader, a communications professional, and a family man. I recently learned that he had to take a 15 year break from playing guitar due to nerve damage in his fingers and arm, which was devastating to him because he loved playing guitar more than just about anything else. If you've lost an ability due to injury or age, or if you suffered from chronic debilitating pain for years and wondered if it would ever stop, then you understand what Tom went through. But this story takes a wonderful turn.
Tom found the answer he needed, or perhaps the answer found him. We can all benefit from what he discovered, and I hope that Tom's story brings you hope if you are struggling with something like this. Clearly God has had plans for Tom all along, and those plans are still playing out. Let's meet Tom and learn more.
[00:02:14] Speaker C: Hey, Tom. How you doing today?
[00:02:17] Speaker A: I'm good, Ramsey. Just been looking forward to this. This is the highlight of the day that I've been looking forward to.
[00:02:24] Speaker C: Right on. I'm looking forward to this too.
You know, I think the. I think the best way that I could introduce you for listeners is just to share sort of how we met and kind of what I sort of rethought about you at first. So you and I go to the same church. We go to Reality Church in Olympia. And we've been, uh, we've been going together at that church for many years now. Um, but we've only recently kind of become friends and gotten to know each other. Uh, the first time. Like my first impression of you was the guy on the stage, on the worship team who played the box.
And for. For the uninitiated, I'm talking about literally a wooden cube that just sort of sits in front of you, and you sort of sit in front of and. And, like, straddle it and, like, drum on it and stuff.
But then also, also, you sang, you sing.
And I was also. And you were leading worship while playing the box, and it just. It was such a. Sort of a. Sort of a disconnect because usually, like, percussionist is sort of hanging out in the back.
And then the other thing that I was always really impressed with is that, you know, when you're singing, you hardly, like. I don't know if I've ever seen you with a sheet of music in front of you. And it's not just because, like, when you're playing a box, there aren't any notes.
It's not that.
[00:03:54] Speaker A: It's like. That's part of it.
[00:03:55] Speaker C: Yeah, that's part of it. But, you know, you didn't have lyrics in front of you either. Like, some of the. Even, like, the best.
You know, most of the worship musicians that we have have, like, a lyric sheet and, like, a music sheet in front of them. But, you know, you always knew all the words to all the songs, and you were leading, and you're just playing the box.
And I was like, there has got to be more of a story to this guy than just playing a box. And then, I don't know, like, you can tell me later when this was. But pretty recently you started playing guitar on stage, and I was like, oh, you learned how to play guitar? And. And, oh, he's actually really good at playing guitar.
He must have gotten really good really fast.
But that's not it at all, is it? That. That's not the story at all, is it?
[00:04:47] Speaker A: No, no, no.
[00:04:49] Speaker C: How long have you been playing guitar? And what did. What did that mean to you?
[00:04:54] Speaker A: Well, just first, the box you're describing is a cajon, and it's like a.
[00:04:59] Speaker C: A cajon.
[00:05:01] Speaker A: I think the origins are Peruvian. Like a box percussion.
Yeah, with a. With a hole in the back. Pretty. Can sound pretty cool, though, when it's mic'd up. But, yeah. Unconventional way to lead worship.
You asked when I first learned how to play guitar. It was not two years ago.
I was in. I think I was between seventh and eighth grade.
There was. There was a. Like, a classical fingerpicking kind of guitar sitting around my house somehow and just started playing it. Bought a. Bought an electric guitar soon after and quickly became obsessed.
[00:05:37] Speaker C: Nice. So you've been playing guitar Basically forever.
What does, what did the guitar mean to you as you were learning how to play it and as you became a strong player?
[00:05:50] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I've just always been obsessed with the music that I heard and loved the idea of creating my own. And so piano was good for me. I think I even played trumpet for a little while in junior high. But guitar just felt like more of a.
It just kind of scratched my musical itch. More just. I mean, honestly, I wanted to be a rock star. Right. So, sure.
[00:06:15] Speaker C: The path, I mean, who doesn't.
[00:06:16] Speaker A: The path to stardom was a lot faster on guitar than.
But yeah, I, I just, just loved making music and had a band in high school.
Remember the first time I played a song in like eighth grade on stage, I was just like, I, I, I love this. And it was hobby. And it took a while for it to become more of career. It did become career. I became a worship pastor and was just using it every day for both work and play.
[00:06:52] Speaker C: Yeah, but then you had to stop. You had to stop playing guitar. And why was that?
[00:06:58] Speaker A: Yeah, so I hadn't, I have not been playing since I was in seventh grade. That, that'd be a. Quite a long time.
But When I was 22, 23, I was leading a ton of worship, playing a ton of guitar rehearsal and two services in the morning on Sundays, rehearsal in a service, at night at another church as a volunteer.
And just a lot of repetitive stuff holding down the same chords. And these little grooves started to form in my fingertips. And anyone who plays guitar or has tried knows you get these little lines in your fingertips and then they fade away after a couple hours or after a day or so, but mine stopped fading away and they were just getting deeper. And I, I still don't know all the factors involved, and I'll spare you all the details, but one day in August, I think it was in 2008, I was at a rehearsal, midweek rehearsal, and I was playing an E5 chord, and there was suddenly this shock of like, electric pain shooting through my. From my fingertips to my mouth.
And it was like, I've told people, it's like a combination of scratching on a chalkboard with fingernails and biting down on tin foil.
Like it was. It was a very terrible jolt.
And it left my arm buzzing for a couple weeks, which turned into a couple of months, which turned into seeking medical help of all kinds, which turned into 15 years of not playing guitar and of residual chronic pain. The initial intensity of the buzzing went away after a couple weeks, but every single Day I had pain in my hand, in my elbow, in my shoulder, and my arm as it ranged from, you know, mildly uncomfortable to very uncomfortable.
And that was a tough season, as you can imagine.
[00:09:05] Speaker C: And that just for clarity, that was the one.
The one arm.
[00:09:09] Speaker A: The.
[00:09:09] Speaker C: The one that you would.
[00:09:11] Speaker A: Yeah, the. The arm, exactly. Yeah, the. The fingers.
Some. In my mind, something happened in my fingertips that, you know, I struck a nerve or something.
Those grooves went too deep, and I.
Something was wrong in my fingertips because I was pressing down too much in the same way.
[00:09:38] Speaker C: And so you lost the ability to play guitar.
What. What was that like? I mean, you had been basing much of your, you know, your profession on that. You were a worship leader, you know, ever since the eighth grade. You know, you were way into it, and I would have to imagine that has a lot. It was wrapped up in your identity as a guitar player, but then it's gone and it's painful.
What is that like?
[00:10:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, there's that initial.
I was supposed to lead songs on Sunday, and I got up there with a stupid little egg shaker, and I stood at a microphone and sang. And I didn't have my.
My fastball, you know, I didn't have my guitar. I had to lean on everybody else so much.
[00:10:32] Speaker C: You didn't have a cajon yet?
[00:10:33] Speaker A: I didn't have a cajon yet.
And I remember praying before that service, somebody.
My friend Melissa, we were in a little circle, and she's like, God, just help Tom not to find his identity as a. As a person in. In guitar. And I was like.
I mean, I was like, no, no, that. That is what I. That is what I do. That is what I want. Like, what are you talking about? Like. And I. And it was a nice prayer, but I was.
It upset me hearing that. I was like, no. And I also had to play. Yeah, it was too many. It was. It was appreciated in a sense, and I'm glad that those words were spoken at that time.
But I was also supposed to play at a wedding in a week or two, and I was like, oh, like, that's something I really wanted to do.
But that wedding passed and I. And then it began to just this growing dread of, like, when am I going to be able to play again? When is this pain going to go away? And I never. I mean, I got to a point, and this is because I don't want to get too hung up on all the details. I got to a point where I pretty convinced I'm never going to play again. And, yeah, it Was. It was devastating to identity. I used to tell people before this happened, I was kind of a Shark Week nerd. And I loved watching shark shows and people would get their hands and arms bit off by sharks. And I remember thinking and saying that would be the worst thing that could possibly happen to me. I. I would rather. And I, I. It's. It's a silly comment to make, but I would rather get cancer and have to fight something like that than have a shark bite my hand off because I couldn't play guitar.
I knew that before I lost it. I knew how devastating it would be to me. I. I didn't know it, but I. I had that sense.
[00:12:25] Speaker C: And you did.
I mean, you went to doctors, you looked for treatments.
What. What did the doctors say?
[00:12:33] Speaker A: I got tested for what felt like everything. I mean, I was.
I was told to go to pt. I was checked for carpal tunnel multiple times. Like these. These different tests. I don't even remember them all, but, like, you know, you got to get to the referral. It was just this endless chain of getting referrals, getting tests, getting results that were inconclusive or they didn't really indicate the thing.
It would be hand therapy, occupational therapy. I went to Seattle at least three or four times to fancy neuro this or neuro that, doctors and got strange tests where they would, like, numb. Stick a needle in my neck and numb part. They're checking my spine, they're checking my. All the. The nerve flow. They're checking everything.
And nothing was conclusive. And nothing was really things like reflexive sympathetic dystrophy or reading about repetitive strain injury. Like, nothing seemed to fit. I'd heard of a couple of musicians that, you know, had something that sounded similar, but, like, I just. I had this nerve. This nerve pain, and it was mysterious. It would, like, hurt my elbow. Sometimes it would hurt my hands. Went to the chiropractor, which I. I've always, like, been like, I don't think they. They help, but I. I went and, like, that didn't do anything. I got.
I got acupuncture. Like, everybody had a suggestion for me, and I did that for, like, it felt like three, maybe four years. I was, like, seeking an answer, and eventually it was too emotionally draining to hope in a. In a new thing.
And.
And I just.
I kind of had to count the cost of. Of seeking help versus just trying to move on with my life.
[00:14:33] Speaker C: And so it's like, after spending however many years trying to deal with it, then did you become sort of resigned and sort of Accept and sort of think, you know, this is how. This is how it's going to be from from here on out.
There must have been a lot of emotions with that. And I'm not sure which is worse, you know, feeling like your hopes are being dashed or feeling like you're resigned to a life of pain and loss of ability.
[00:15:04] Speaker A: I can say that the bigger, the bigger thing was the identity thing.
And, and, and I, like I referred to earlier, it was my fastball. It was the thing I had the confidence in. Yeah, I can sing, I have a nice voice. You know, I could. I could do other things well. But it was, it was the thing that I kind of leaned on for, for confidence and feeling like I was making like a.
I like feeling like an expert in things. I like feeling like on the top, you know, like I work hard and get better at something and nothing else kind of met that, like, scratch that itch for me or felt satisfying.
And then there was the layer of chronic pain of like, it. And it was. You mentioned me playing box.
For some reason, hitting the box with the side of my fingers, because you kind of hit it with an open hand was a much different physical experience than pressing down on the fingertips. So something like playing piano. And, and in my main, my main kind of daily battle was typing on a keyboard.
Back before voice to text was a thing like in 2008, 9, 10, something called dragon Software. And I had a little headset in my office. Cause I was trying not to type and it was translating my words into type. And I was trying to find a workaround from slamming my fingertips into the keyboard every day. But, but it, it got me. I was sad about not playing.
I was depressed. I was hurting from typing, you know, and in the different activities I felt like I couldn't avoid, which, you know, anyone who's dealt with chronic pain knows that it tends to like, lean into like depression and just feeling down, feeling sad. And so that was just an ongoing, at least two layer battle there of chronic pain and the, the grief really, of, of losing, of losing guitar. And I did not think I would ever play again.
[00:17:25] Speaker C: And what did that do to other areas of your life?
I mean, you mentioned that professionally you were typing a lot on the keyboard.
So you're getting into that sort of vocation.
So there's impacts professionally, but then I also imagine it would impact your relationships within your life. You know, when we have those sort of identity changes or losses, you know, we sort of start behaving like a different person or we sort of Become a different person or we think of ourselves as a different person or we feel like we've lost the person that we are.
You know, what, what did that do to your relationships and the people around you?
[00:18:10] Speaker A: That's a great question.
There's a few layers I'm thinking about with that. One is I did look for other ways to scratch my creative itch. And in some ways like it, it opened, it opened me up to certain relationships. Like I, I became a little bit of a visual artist for a bit there.
I figured out how to make electronic music. And so there was friendships and relationships around producing music that I really leaned into and had fun with.
The I, I, somehow in my mind it was surprising that I kept my job. I didn't think anyone was going to kick me out, but I thought to be a worship leader you got to play guitar and you got to play piano. I, I, I figured out how to do it different.
A drum set. For a little while I sang for the drum set that was not super sustainable, although doable, but, but not ideal. The box was a cool, you know, I, I, I heard all over those years, I heard people come up to me after church and be like, man, I've never seen someone lead like that. It's really awesome. And, and I was proud of it. Like I was proud of my hi hat in my, which is a little symbol, foot triggered cymbal thing, the cajon. I had a little synthesizer next to me. I had like four or five mics. Like I was really like being a nerd about it and, and trying to do it really well, even through a toe tambourine. Every, in, every once in a while little gizmo for your toe that, I mean it was, I, I just, yeah.
[00:19:50] Speaker C: I'm getting images of like the one man band, like Drop or that guy.
[00:19:54] Speaker A: From Dick Van Dyke from Is it Mary Poppins? Is he the, is that.
[00:20:02] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:20:03] Speaker A: People said that I didn't remember it from childhood, but, but yeah, so, but then we talk about relationships that really stood out later down the road, like when I got married because this happened and 2008, I got married in 2016. So eight years later I get married and my wife starts to have to deal with my disappointment because I always felt that, I mean this is heavy but like I always felt that everything going on in my life was distant second to what it was supposed to be. Like I, I couldn't pursue my career the same way, I couldn't pursue my hobbies the same way.
And she had to deal with that disappointment, and it would just come out. I, I feel she probably stays more frequent, but I feel like every four to six months, it would just kind of swell up in some way. Just like, I'd just be so, like, I would. I would be stewing on it. And then I would say, if only, you know, if only I could play guitar.
And that really was not life giving for her to have to. I mean, anyone who's been close to someone who's depressed about something, it's not, it's not fun. Like, it's not ideal.
But that helped bring.
Just helped me be aware that this really is impacting somebody else. And it, it ultimately led to me.
I, I pursued some counseling when I first lost guitar, and I probably needed it anyway, but it gave me an excuse. Like, I'm sad about this thing. I need to talk to somebody. And then eight, nine, 10 years later, I'm married. It's. It's affecting Hillary. And I pursued counseling with the express purpose of get. I, I want. I went in there and said that, and I said, I want to get over the grief of losing the ability to play guitar. Help me do that.
And it didn't work. You know what, Whatever we did, it didn't work.
And I don't think I should have expected it to work, but.
[00:22:17] Speaker C: Well.
So you and I share our faith.
Do you?
How did you feel about God during this time?
And what did you think God was teaching you?
And how mad were you at God? Because that's what I would kind of almost expect.
[00:22:41] Speaker A: Wow. Yeah.
That's something that I'm going to unpack for you in about. In a few seconds here.
But I mean, there's a lot there, you know.
[00:22:55] Speaker C: Sure.
[00:22:56] Speaker A: But I knew that the thing and, and this was as a person in my relationship with the Lord, I felt the most alive and the most used by him. When I was leading worship, I just, I knew that worshiping and leading people in song was.
Is just something I was. I felt, made to do. And, and that he designed me for it. So, so to, to. To feel like I was being removed from that at least substantially.
At least in my mind it was substantially removed from that. I just didn't get.
Was confusing.
And Melissa's prayer that I would not find my identity in it really rang true for me in a painful way. But I wanted and felt calling to use music to give God glory and to stir people up, give them space to praise him and orient their lives to him.
But I really enjoyed the Tom Glory side of it that people Respected me for it, thought I was great at it. Poured out their. Their compliments and praise of me.
Loved it on college campus when I was known by everybody and I liked it and needed it. Honestly, after, after college, when I was moved to Olympia and started working in this field, needed it, didn't always get it. And I knew there was something unsustainable about that and that it was hard not to see it as punishment for that secret harboring of, like, I need glory. You know, I want. I want people to love me and see me and find me valuable for this.
It was hard not to see that as punishment because I knew secretly I never talked to anybody about that, that, yes, I wanted God to get glory and, you know, and I wanted glory and.
But I was mad. Yeah, Know. I mean, I. I remember shouting in certain private environments, shouting at the top of my lungs because it was painful.
I felt like, why?
You know, this is. This is ignorant. God. Like, it's ignorant for you to take this away from me.
It's not.
It's making it harder to.
To use my gift for you. You know, like, I just had my list. I mean, it was. It was there. There's so much and there's so much to. To unpack there. But, yeah, short answer, I was ticked.
[00:25:58] Speaker C: Yeah, well, like I said, like, that's pretty much what I expected you to say.
You know, I think you're describing and you experienced a lot of themes that I think a lot of people sort of in your place or in just a lot of people in general experience.
So, for example, some things that come to mind, people who. Many people sort of get their identities around things that they're really good at, and when they can't do those things anymore, it's a huge blow.
You know, that's sort of a thematic story and it's really difficult to deal with.
And of course, lots of people deal with difficult, chronic, debilitating pain on a regular basis.
But then you also were talking about the experience of worship leaders. And I wonder if a lot of worship leaders sort of have that same secret thing down deep inside in terms of, you know, yeah, of course we're doing this for the glory of God, but it's also brilliant, pretty darn cool.
And like, that just feels to me like such a human sort of response. And I can't fault anybody for feeling that way because it is really cool.
So playing music and worshiping and, you know, I sang back up on a worship team for a while years and years ago, and it's a really Profound experience to be on the stage and singing and having know the band behind you and people in front of you and just being at the center of worship and you know, you, the, the role of a worship leader is to be the, the lead worshiper and to sort of connect and channel and you know, be an example and connect with God and help other people connect with God. But I don't think it's really even possible to not have some of those feelings like wow, it's really cool to be up here. So I think that's a very sort of human, an understandable experience. And then just, finally just the whole idea of being mad about, mad at God and you know, saying things that God, you don't know what you're doing and God, it was really dumb of you to do that and God, you made a huge mistake because now I can't serve you.
You know, it's those, the kinds of things that we do and then we look back and we're just like, oh.
[00:28:31] Speaker A: I know how, you know, I, I use the word ignorant but I know how I was the ignorant one. You know, I, I knew that there was like just, there's that, that you named that. It's, it's probably impossible to fully take that desire for recognition and glory out of, out of a situation like that.
And there's a tension there. It's just like at the same time that I was telling God how wrong he was, I was, I knew he had to do what he was doing in my life, you know, and, or, or allowing.
I think I don't want to tread lightly on the God.
I mean I believe he was sovereign over all the things that were going on and lovingly allowing this.
There's no other way to help me navigate some of this stuff than to, than to like this kind of put me out of commission from destroying myself.
[00:29:52] Speaker C: But let's pivot because you are playing guitar again.
And why and how is it that you picked up a guitar, that you started strumming a guitar that you were able to play like what, what did.
[00:30:05] Speaker A: It probably won't surprise you that I didn't wait 15 years to try.
I kept trying twice. I bought left handed guitars to try to learn the other way. And that was a terrible experience. I mean trying maybe I can break my other way. I mean there was that fear like what if I put all the work, what if I actually stick with this, put all the work in, is this just going to happen all over again?
And, and so I, it didn't work. I, I It was too frustrating. I felt like having been a guitar player for many years, starting from scratch, it just isn't the same.
Your, your left arm has different functionality than your right and obviously people can learn how to, to do it, but it just was too high, steep of a hill for me to climb. So twice I bought and sold left handed guitars and so I'll fast forward to this last time which was just about two and a half years ago.
It was around the Super Bowl.
I don't, I think I remember that because yeah, I, I, I went and bought a guitar from somebody on offer up because I'd sold all my stuff but I went to go grab a guitar and started playing. I had this idea that maybe I could play one minute and I'd done this before again, but one minute, first day, two minutes the second day, three minutes the third day.
I think I'm getting ahead of myself though. Are we, we're kind of talking about what, what changed.
Yeah.
[00:32:01] Speaker C: So like I asked, you know, you, you, we, we know that you did start playing again and I'm, I'd like to hear, you know, if there was a fundamental shift or change or if it was happenstance that, you know, this.
[00:32:17] Speaker A: Time I was in one of my every six month disappointment about not being able to play. My high school friend Scott had sent me an hour and a half video of our high school band playing at our greatest show, you know, in like 2000, 2001.
And thanks. I was like, I was pretty good, you know, and I was like that, that, that, that's cool. I want to, I just wish I could rock out again, you know. And so the next day or days after I was sitting, leaning on the side of my bed thinking I want to maybe what if I got an electric guitar? It's easier on the fingers, not like an acoustic guitar. And, and it just did the one minute a day, two minute a day, three minute a day thing.
And I start scrolling through pictures of guitars on offerup or on. It might not have been offerup, it was actually a website. But as I'm doing that, all my arm pain, which I regularly experience was just swelling into my body. Like my arm pain was just awakening and intensifying. I'm not even using my left hand, which is the arm that I had all the issues with. I'm swiping through with my right hand and I'm like, that was weird.
And it wasn't a completely unfamiliar experience to see that. The way I was thinking about that when I would think about or hear A guitar. I would start to experience the pain, but it just stood out really powerfully. And then I. I went and I talked to Hillary about it. I just mentioned it, and she said, you know, I've. I've heard of how people with trauma, sometimes there. There's a connection, like, physical pain and trauma. And I was like, babe, like, I haven't had. What are you talking about? Like, I.
I was just trying to share with you, like, don't try to fix me. You know, like, and. And I. I just walked away from that conversation. But later that day, I Googled it. Trauma and physical pain. And an article popped up from a company or app called Pathways.
And I still have the browser. I literally still have the. The article open on my Safari iPhone browser.
But it's a. There's an app you can. And it's helping people deal with chronic pain. And the article, I. I had a surprising amount of resonance with the article. I didn't feel that I'd ever gone through kind of our, like, big headline trauma, you know, like the big things that, you know, normal people just think, oh, yeah, that's traumatic. But I resonated with a lot of the article. And then I tried using the app a little bit, and it kind of fizzled out. But then I came across another article is a infographic about chronic pain from a company called Curable, another app, and in helping people navigate chronic pain.
And it just was eerily familiar, this whole, like, timeline of someone who deals with chronic pain, kind of personality traits, life experiences, the way they react to them. I'm like, I feel like this could be. You just copy and paste me into all these little infographics, and that's me.
And it opened up this world of exploring what is the connection between mind and emotions and my body.
And that's what triggered kind of this.
That's what was different this time around.
And I would say that the one thing that I just kind of binged on from Curable was their podcast, which you didn't have to pay for the app. You had to. You could try it. You had to pay for it.
The podcast was story after story of people that had chronic pain for 5, 10, 30 years and were getting 80, 90% better almost immediately from working through some of this stuff. And now just. If you go check it out now, their podcast, I'm not as big a fan of it. It's just kind of like chatting about different topics, but they're like stories of walking people through, hearing people's stories of walking through chronic pain. And recovering. It gave me a window in a sense of what if this is me? And it kind of, kind of dove into that.
[00:36:59] Speaker C: What is sort of the nugget of commonality of how people overcome chronic pain.
[00:37:09] Speaker A: Then trying to think about how to get into this without, you know, the, the main thing I would, I would say is what stood out to me almost immediately was this idea that, that I don't know if this is the exact number or if it's.
They said 80% of people with chronic pain, there was a physical reason for it, but your body and your mind learned those pain pathways. And it's, it's now whatever was causing that initially for a lot of people has already been, you know, your body's moved past it, but, but when your body anticipates pain, you feel real pain. When your brain thinks it's that something is painful, you experience real pain.
And there, there's the, the kind of therapy that they recommend, the main kind of therapy is called pet pain education therapy. And just learning about how pain works scientifically gets people in many cases, like, almost all the way better, just learning about pain. And that's what I was doing when I was binging on those podcasts and hearing about people who were dealing with things they thought were impossible to overcome. And, and I was like, I want this to be me.
And yeah, so it was in a nutshell, it's learning about pain.
And then.
[00:38:46] Speaker C: So it sounds like the way that I sort of interpret that or the way that kind of lands with me is like you're conditioned to feel the pain as the result of certain circumstances, but those circumstances are like, related to and surrounded by the real physical originator, original reason why you feel the pain.
But what I'm hearing is that even when the physical reason and originator of the pain goes away, your body still has been conditioned to expect the pain when you move your arm that way, you know, and that's sort of like the, the classic Pavlov's dog, you know, ringing the bell to make it salivate versus, you know, it doesn't even have to smell the food anymore.
[00:39:35] Speaker A: For 15 years, I built up, I'd been like, learning and convincing myself, discovering what created pain. And I wanted to avoid it. So when I, like, it was bad enough to not play guitar, but to have to deal with the depressing pain, that was just.
That was put me over the edge. Like, I didn't. I wanted to avoid that at all costs. I didn't want it to get worse.
And so I just learned the Things that kind of seem to create that pain for me. And so I just. For years, I'm educating myself and trying to do the things that avoid it. But what I learned, again, kind of in a nutshell, was I had to retrain my. My brain to see activities that I thought were going to cause me pain that I thought held a high amount of risk. I had to retrain my brain to believe that those things are not actually dangerous.
I had to persuade myself. And you have to give, like, Yeah, I got 15 years of persuading myself with one thing, and I had to. It's almost like faith, like, and I was actually kind of uncomfortable with this. Like, there's, like, you have to believe and.
And, like, almost just like, bank all your hopes, you know, and not. Not, like, blindly, but just say, hey, I'm gonna. I'm gonna believe in this thing.
And then you supplement that decision to believe with these little pieces of evidence. Like, I actually played guitar last night longer than any other time before, and I'm.
I'm at work. And I only started feeling pain when I got really stressed out about a conversation I was having with somebody or was about to have with somebody. And I started to see connections between just stress triggers and the pain. And another thing I learned about chronic pain is that people who deal with chronic pain, their body just learns their kind of normal kind of pain.
And whenever something.
Whenever their body gets, like, their nervous system gets activated or they get nervous about something or stressed out about something, the body wants to tell you that there's a problem, and it just activates that really familiar pain. And, Ramsey, this afternoon, before getting on the call with you, I started to feel arm pain. I was typing on my computer. Yes. But I was feeling a little nervous about sharing my story, and, oh, what am I going to remember to say certain things? And I was like, wow, here it is again. But you know what? That. That arm pain is not packed anymore with. Meaning the arm pain is not packed with. It's not connected to the devastating loss of something that I love. It's not connected to this, like, endless journey ahead of dealing with this for the rest of my life.
It's like, oh, I'm just getting anxious and that. I mean, we could have a whole nother podcast about all the other ins and outs of this chronic pain journey, but.
[00:42:54] Speaker C: Well, that is really.
That is really kind of amazing and profound.
I'm really interested in all of these mind, body, spirit connections.
So, you know, that is another.
That's a really powerful example of mind and body and spirit connections because the, when you were talking about sort of all the things of identity wrapped up in the pain and wrapped up in your, you know, physicality, that's your spirit, that's wrapped up with your mind and with your body.
But based on all the stuff that you said and all the experiences, what kind of a message do you have now for other people who are experiencing similar kinds of things, you know, experiencing chronic pain or experiencing disappointment that, you know, things in their life didn't work out the way that they really wanted them to, or feeling like wondering if they're ever going to get back what they lost. When you have to stay to folks.
[00:43:56] Speaker A: First thing is I want to be really careful to say hold on, it's going to like you're going to get past it because there's no promise of that.
I, I had in some ways I had come to terms with never playing again.
And when I say come to terms, I mean there's just. There was at least what I think was an unbreakable like strand of faith that regardless of what unfolds in my life, God, like, he has a plan for me.
He.
He knows whether I can handle to play guitar again. You know, like from kind of a, just like a overall like emotional, spiritual, well being perspective.
So I, in one sense I know what those people feel like.
I never thought I was going to play again.
And so I don't want to say just hang on, you'll be fine.
I do and I know that like my journey through chronic pain and recovery is not the answer for everybody, but I do know that for some it might be.
And, and so just don't underestimate how everything, if you're dealing with chronic pain or a physical issue, anyone. I'm sure that pursuing emotional wellness, forget letting go of, of people you haven't forgiven.
In my case, it's like examining like what, what would it be like if, if I had this idol still of just being able to play guitar and, and, and be, be great, you know, in people's eyes.
I guess just don't, don't under, be willing to do the emotional and spiritual work of exploring these things because as you, as you journal about it or reflect on it, you may, you may be surprised at how your body recovers when you address some of the emotional and you know, past kind of, past story kind of stuff that's, that hasn't been dealt with.
I don't know if that. I know there's, there's more I want to say about that. I Just. That's kind of where my mind goes immediately. Do you want to unpack that at all or.
[00:46:57] Speaker C: Well, I think.
Well, I think there is a whole lot to say and I think that you have a whole lot to say. You, you have a really amazing story. And you know, it sounds like just within the past couple of years, it's, it's taken a much brighter turn.
And I wonder if now, if you're thinking that now is, is a, Is the right time, a better time to really begin telling your story in a broader way. Like, I so appreciate you coming on to, to tell the story through, through what's worthwhile. I'm just, I'm wondering if you are looking at and thinking about other ways that you tell your story.
[00:47:39] Speaker A: I have been thinking about that.
I think about how those testimonies of people who are overcoming all their chronic pain, like just hearing those stories, some of them were just encouraging and some of them were like, just cut deep. Like, I totally related and needed to hear that to get over something.
And so, I mean that. That's one reason I'm glad that you and I are talking. Because if, if it opens up one person to having hope in a context of chronic pain, I, My, My strand of hope that this could be me telling my story was very thin. Like, I, I did not think that I would be the success story in terms of overcoming chronic pain.
So I have been thinking about. And you brought up the thing about worship leaders.
I've been thinking about how as a young worship leader, nobody unpacked those kind of conflicting glory pursuits of God's and my own.
And so I'd love to find out, find a way of sharing that and all. All that goes with it.
Yeah. I've also been thinking, as you asked me questions today, of all the people, I named Melissa as one person, but of all the people who walked with me through this, and there's one person who believed I was going to get better. Like the only person who believed that, I think, and just really communicated that to me.
There's.
Yeah, there's just all these key, key relationships and characters in my story.
So I have thought about having conversations kind of like this one with those people and, and I think that would do a couple things. One, just be awesome to talk about our friendship and how, how this whole thing, their friendship was important to me to walk through it.
But also it's also an easier way for me to think about sharing my story than writing a book or trying to unpack it with a keyboard and a computer.
[00:50:06] Speaker C: That sounds really cool.
Well, if there are people listening that you have inspired or who would like to dig in further or talk with you more about it, how can they get in touch with you?
[00:50:22] Speaker A: Well, the only social platform I'm really paying attention to these days is LinkedIn. Use it for work, obviously. And so, I mean, you can find me there. That's probably the best.
[00:50:34] Speaker C: And it's Tom Dykstra. D Y K S T R A so, Tom, thank you so much.
I just am so honored that you took the time to explain all this to me and to do it on this platform. And, you know, you have a.
A tremendous story. Like, I had no idea. Like, I've. I've seen you up there on the stage for years, and you're so much more than just the guy who plays the box and always knows the words. I'm really glad that.
Really glad that we've had a chance in the last little while to become friends. And I just really wish you luck in telling your story and continuing to see what God has in store for you.
[00:51:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. Really a cool experience to share and to get to open up with you and respond to your questions, too. Thanks for having me, Ramsey.
[00:51:39] Speaker C: Yep, you bet.
[00:51:41] Speaker B: Looking for more? Visit whatsworthwhile.net to listen to podcast episodes, learn from books and articles, and live better by choosing healthy products and practices. I'm now offering services through Worthwhile Advisors for personal coaching, professional advising, speaking, and group facilitation. If you or your team are ready to reduce stress and anxiety, build vitality and momentum, and accomplish your goals. Goals without burning out, then please contact me, Ramsey Zimmerman, through the website or on social media like Instagram X or LinkedIn. Thanks.
