[00:00:00] Speaker A: But more like, how can I get to know you? How can I understand you? How can I connect? I think we are stuck in the paradigm of who's right, who's wrong. And I would advance that. Really, the paradigm that we're called to is who are you and what's your story?
[00:00:18] Speaker B: Hey there, it's Ramsey here. That was Parfait basile. We had a terrific conversation about Parfait's life growing up in West Africa, what it was like to come to the US for college, his music, and his work as a professional trainer and facilitator. We'll even get a little taste of a song from his recent album, the Journey Home, available on Spotify and Apple Music. Look in the show notes for links or visit parfaitbasale.com. Alright, here we go. Hey, Parfait, thanks a lot for joining me for this conversation. How are you doing today?
[00:00:51] Speaker A: I am doing very well, Ramzi, thank you for the opportunity to be here and have a conversation.
Like, I like to say, I like to say when the sun is out, you know, the mood is good.
[00:01:06] Speaker B: And we do have, we do have sun out here in, in western Washington. Maybe that will continue because I'm ready for it.
[00:01:16] Speaker A: You and me both. It was a long winter, so. Really excited about the spring on the horizon.
[00:01:24] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. Well, parfait, you and I are good friends. We know each other well. But for our audience, I will say that you are a peacemaker, a catalyst for change in the area of diversity, equity and inclusion.
You're a singer songwriter and a consultant these days. You are a successful independent coach and trainer.
Previously, you were the executive diversity officer for a nationally recognized community college, and you came to the United States to go to college after being born and raised in West Africa.
So let's start at the beginning.
What was it like for you growing up and what led to the decision to go to school in the US?
[00:02:18] Speaker A: Yeah, no, well, a few clarifying things. You know, I'm aspirational peacemaker. Right. Working at it.
So if we were to look at the outcomes right now in the world and our communities, you know, there's a lot of work out there for us to do. But to your question, yeah, I was born in Benin Republic, a small country in West Africa.
And, you know, my dad in particular used to work for an overseas company. And so what that meant for us and my siblings was essentially every so many years we had to move from one place to another, very similar to military children's experience. And so that really shaped my upbringing, you know, in terms of very early on, really wrestling with the notion of where is home, if you will. But I had a very great upbringing outside of that very close family. My parents really loved us, me and my siblings.
You know, I loved playing soccer.
You know, we grew up in church. My dad was a devout Christian.
And that really shaped my worldview, if you will, and my convictions. And so we were in all standards, as you will say, for people growing in Africa, which is considered by many as developing part of the world or third world countries. Like, some people would say we had some financial challenges, but my parents really sacrificed to make sure we had the best education and went into good schools and so forth. So there was always that tension between, you know, being provided opportunities and also being aware of the things that I didn't have. Right, anything that I longed to have as a kid. So that also drove a lot of my. My drive, if you will, in life more promptly as it relates to my decision to come to the US. Some of it was really linked to the fact that I wanted to have some of the best opportunities in order to make a difference, and knowing that there were some limits and limitations to job opportunities, even educational opportunities within the west african context, at least at that time.
And so when I graduated from high school, started really exploring ways to further my education overseas.
And, you know, Europe was potentially an option.
You know, the United States was also an option at that time.
And, you know, one thing leading to another, as we explored some financial grants and scholarships and things like that, became clear that, you know, american experience would be one that would provide a lot of opportunities for me and my siblings. And so here we are, 2025 years later.
[00:05:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, that's great. So you went to school in Portland, Oregon. Right. So what was it. What was it like adjusting to Portland?
The people, the culture, the climate. A lot different from what you had previously, right?
[00:05:51] Speaker A: Yes. Yes, it was. You know, it was really interesting moving to a new cultural and geographical place. Right. You. There's things that you anticipate, and there's things you just have no idea you're gonna find out. Right. So the weather, even though in some ways, I. I knew that, yeah, it's colder country, there will be colder weather, but I didn't realize how cold it would be, you know? And one story that I like to share oftentimes is, I remember I came to Portland in late summer, and so kind of beginning of fall, and so I remember I arrived, and a lot of the people who were in my networks because my older brother was the pioneer really in coming to the United States first. And so when I came in, I got connected to his network, right? And so his. Most of his friends and connections were saying, oh, my gosh, we wish you came. You know, a week or two earlier, the weather was awesome, and so I was really shocked about this obsession around the weather. I was like, why? Everybody is just talking to me about the weather and talking to me about the weather. And then, you know, I finally got it when the sun just would never show up. And then eventually, when the sun. The sun will come out, I would notice people will, you know, lay on the grass to soak in the sun. And at first, it was an oddity to me because I was like, what's wrong with y'all? You know, people don't lay on the grass where I'm from. It's for the sheep and the lamb, right? And so they were all just cognitive dissonances. But now I will be the first to get outside and get some sun when it finally comes out. So that's just with regards to the climate. That was some of the things that, you know, reality hate about how cold it is here. The beautiful four seasons was another, you know, realization. And then food. At first, it was really hard for me to eat anything because a lot of it felt like a bunch of sugar. Everything seemed sugar. Yep. Everything felt as though we just poured sugar in it. And that's how I started developing my. My affection for thai food, because thai and indian food, because that was the only cuisine that reminded me not only of my native west african diet, but also the spices were a little. Be more familiar to bit my taste buds. So there was that. And then language was also a challenge. And you learn English in the classroom, because I learned English starting in middle school in the same fashion. I believe folks here in the US learn a second language, Spanish in some places.
So there was a degree of understanding that I needed to have in order to get a student visa in the US. But once you land here, you know, the speed at which people talk and the accent, the idioms and all that just was a challenge that I had to figure out over the years.
And then ultimately, obviously, there was the notion of a racialized society as well that I think that was the first time in my entire existence that I came to realize, oh, I'm actually black, and it means something different, right. That notion of my racial identity had so much weight within the american experience than it had prior in my native West Africa. And so that was also another thing that I came to realize and learn to navigate.
[00:09:34] Speaker B: Yeah. So everything is different. The climate, the culture, the language, the people.
But you did bring with you another thing, which is your music.
Tell me about your music, what it's like, what you create and perform. And what does that mean to you?
[00:09:57] Speaker A: Yeah, no, thank you, Ramzi.
And the music piece probably goes back to the earlier question you asked about what it was like growing up. Right.
I touched on a little bit on the fact that because we had to move from one place to another, right. There was that experience of, gosh, where's home? Or being reminded that in some settings I didn't quite fit in. Right.
And so music, very early on became the outlet for me to kind of process those emotions and those thoughts. And it first started with rap music because I was born in the eighties.
And so right around my teen years, the hip hop movement was pretty, pretty global as a phenomenon. So hip hop was huge. And I really loved the version of hip hop that was what you call conscious rap music that really used poetry and rhymes and rhythms to. To really talk about social ills or interpersonal challenges.
And then I was also a big fan of reggae music, the legendary Bob Marley.
And so you could imagine kind of a confluence or merger of that type of hip hop. Plus reggae music really was my influence. And so I wrote a lot of music to talk about suicidal ill challenges, men to men cruelty, you know, why we don't get along? Why don't we just, you know, accept each other for our differences and so forth?
And so that theme has been all throughout. And so when I came to the US, as you would imagine, as I was navigating all this change of environment, change of culture, and, you know, music was really, really huge and kind of keeping me grounded and processing what was happening.
And so, and it's a big part of what I do when I also try to coach and engage individuals and organizations around cultures of belonging.
Music just has this way of transcending race, religion, language, if you will, and speak to our emotions and experiences. And it's a really effective way to draw people into introspection and relating to shared experiences. And so I use that very intentionally to break the ice and to invite people into that space where we can really think about ways we can bridge across divides.
[00:12:42] Speaker B: Yes, well, so that's all really interesting. So, you know, you came to this country, you were sort of the other. You were the outsider when you first got here.
It sounds like you already had.
Were already thinking about kind of societal issues and things like that was sort of already built into your music.
And now professionally, you do a lot of work in helping people to, you know, bridge divides and connect with others and to see things like that. So did.
What was it like where you were able to pivot from feeling like kind of the other and the outsider yourself to a place where you could really sort of connect with people in a meaningful way to help them sort of understand how to build. Build bridges?
[00:13:45] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, it's a good question.
Yeah. You know, a pivot. That's an interesting notion. Right. Of a pivot. Because there was a turning point. There was a turning point, definitely. If I look at this sequence of events where, you know, as the other, as you, as I experience, I was experiencing being the outsider in various settings for a while. You know, it was experienced from a. From a victim lens. Right, right. And which, you know, psychologically is kind of a necessary step to begin with because you've been victimized and so it hurts. And you're like, what's wrong with the people? What's wrong with you? Why are you doing this to me? Right.
But then as the journey of healing continues, you'll get to a. I got to a place where I started also looking at the fact that I wasn't perfect. Right. I wasn't blameless either. And that there were some of the very thing that were causing harm to me that I was exhibiting. Right. And there was this singular story that was pretty poignant when I came to the US, you know, I spent a lot of time calling some of my friends who remain who were back in West Africa, and I will call them quite regularly because there was still less sense of all my people. Right. I'm not connecting with these Americans. They're too weird. Right.
So I would call regularly and lay.
[00:15:17] Speaker B: On the grass, like, what are they?
[00:15:20] Speaker A: Everything they eat is just sugar. It's like sweet.
[00:15:23] Speaker B: And sugar snow falls from the sky.
[00:15:27] Speaker A: It's weird, right? All those elements of differences became, you know, grounds for criticism and. Right. And barriers for barriers in a way of connecting. And so I would. I would, you know, vent and talk about this stuff and be like, can you believe what I was asked today again, you know, whether there were some, you know, whether I flew here or I swam here. Right. Just all these ridiculous things. Right. I was asked all kind of stuff, so. But I remember my friend after a little while of me just going off on the phone weekend after weekend, one day he just told me, parfait. Come on, man, it can't be that bad.
You know, this is the United States of America. You're talking about like, you know, there's thousands and thousands of people who wish they were in your, in your shoes. I mean, you, I don't know. I'm just saying, you know, cannot be just all that bad. And, and that hit. Right. There was some, some kernel of truth in what he said at that time. And I started realizing in that moment that, holy cow, the very thing I was complaining about, I was actually doing the same thing. I was othering Americans as a whole. I was generalizing them. And that, and those barriers were getting in the way of me being able to build relationships and connecting. Right. And so I think that was a pivotal moment. I actually wrote a song of that experience called let's face it, which is kind of my version of the men in the mirror of Michael Jackson, where essentially I was holding myself accountable around my own values. Here I am and say I'm a peacemaker, right? And here I am othering an entire group of people because of singular experiences that I had. And, and by operating that way, I was limiting my ability to really integrate or thrive.
[00:17:19] Speaker C: Face it, let's face it, let's face it, I am the problem rather than others. When it is so blatant that I'm always right. Right. And always justified that for me to own it, I don't know how to take it.
We're facing people who think differently.
Do I be fight? We just choose to stay far more.
[00:18:00] Speaker A: And that's when the pivot started happening. And seeing that, hey, some of these things I'm frustrated about here, you know, I experienced dimension of it overseas as well. Right. And so there's a thread around the human experience where we tend to other one another and really focus on those things that are different and those things that have caused harm.
And so we're starting to have that broader conversation around what is this human tendency and how can we circumvent this or work through it in order to really bridge? And that's how I really achieved that pivot in becoming more of an educator and facilitator towards bridge building.
[00:18:38] Speaker B: Do you think that it is almost like a maturity step to. For people to get to a place where they can see outside of their own perspective or outside of their own identity to sort of see how other people might be experiencing things?
[00:19:00] Speaker A: Yeah, it certainly is a progression. I don't know if I would put it on the continuum of maturity, which could certainly be a framework to look at it through, but I like to look at it through the framework of healing.
Right. Where you are deeply wounded and you are tending to the crisis. Right.
And, you know, it hurts. It's so pain. We've all had pain, right? You cannot think of anything else. You are deep in the pain. You're looking at it, you're feeling it. And so there's that. I think for me, as I was able to. To maybe have some distance from some of the most acute pain elements as it relates to me feeling like an outsider, you know, that can help me be able to zoom out a little bit. So that's one variable, I would say, in the equation. Another piece, I think, that was helpful is perspective. Right.
Perspective. Being able to be. So as an immigrant here, one of the things that was, know, a blessing to me was that, you know, I was in a relatively international campus, and so there were people from all kind of walks of lives, right. And because I really wanted to learn English, I really wanted to understand the culture, you know, and because of my life story up to this point where I had to be around different people, I just haven't had a genuine curiosity around, hey, how y'all do things, you know, how is this? And so that proximity to a wide range of experiences ended up serving me well. Right. Because when you close to something, close to a different perspective, it saves you from silos. Right, right. And so those perspectives end up, you know, getting into your. Your. Your thinking processes and allows you to start seeing things slightly differently. And so. So I would say the healing continuum is one critical piece and in proximity to other experiences in order to not just be caught into your own cocoon of siloed thinking would be, I think, what can help people start looking outside of their own and unique experiences and see things from other people's perspectives.
[00:21:24] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, that's really interesting.
So I have.
[00:21:29] Speaker A: What do you think?
[00:21:32] Speaker B: Thanks for asking.
Well, so I think that, you know, I'm really interested in the notion of building bridges between people and between groups of people.
You know, from my perspective where I sit, I sort of. I see, and it looks like. And it feels like to me that the country is. Is really divided into a lot of camps, right. And whether it's based on race or based on politics or based on religion or based on other issues, it seems like it's often around issues of identity.
And I think that there's safety and belonging in a way, to sort of get connected in with a group, whatever sort of affinity the group is based on. But then the downside of the danger is that if we start thinking of, you know, people in a different group, as, you know, an adversary or, you know, as bad as thinking of them as, like, the enemy or the problem. You know, that's where we get into some really. Some really tough issues. You know, I think maybe one of the reasons parfait, why you are a terrific intermediary is that you are, as you described, coming to this country like another, but at the same time, like, you're.
You are not sort of embedded in one group or the other. You know, you are sort of a free agent, if you will, in this country. So, you know, there's lots of sort of in groups. So, you know, what do you think about sort of that notion? Do you see that notion of there being a lot of groups or sort of tribes or, you know, affinity groups kind of within our culture here and, you know, bridging between and among them? Because that's. That's kind of what I see.
[00:23:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no, I appreciate that. And, you know, yeah, I would agree that.
And I don't think it's just typical to the United States context, but the notion of humans gathering in tribes and camps is. Yeah, right. Long, documentary, universal. It's pretty universal. And so I had witnessed that as well. And I think being on the. On the receiving end of that, of that, you know, behavior was kind of the early, you know, incentives for me to try to figure out, holy cow, how do we not do that? Because it doesn't feel good. Right. On the receiving end.
You know, again, the reason why we get into tribes or whatever, the basis of tribal formation will differ. You know, in some places, it's religion. Right? Like you said, in some places, it's this economic status or caste, right. And in some places, it's gender, like you say, identity, identity things.
But it's a complicated notion because here's the thing, that there's a sense of comfort and support that is experienced within a group that has similar experiences, lived experiences as. As you have. Right. There is that element that you understand me. You see me, you know, I don't have to explain everything that is actually shared. Right. We can kind of build on that, you know, for support. So there's that. And just like any closed system, right. You know, when I go into system thinking and a system that is closed to itself, if there was to ever be a bug in that system, right. There's no external ways to kind of fix that. You know, I have a background in, you know, information system and programming, and I remember, you know, this idea of an infinite loop. So it's a loop that is stuck in itself, and it just bugs the whole system. Right. And so I like to use that analogy to think about our human systems, that it's important that we have entry points or connecting points to other systems. Right. There's value in having communities where there's shared. Shared interests, shared experiences, but there's extreme value in not having those be siloed because otherwise we become just close to the rest of the world and other experiences and. Yeah. And we can kind of go offline at times. Right. Off rails. And so, yes. You know, providentially, you know, my live story was such that I was kind of in proximity to various lived experiences. And I've, you know, as a result, also really seek those out. And it can be also challenging and lonely when you don't feel like. Right.
[00:26:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:25] Speaker A: You fully. I fit into one particular cocoon because every cocoon will kind of look at you like a free agent in some ways and be like, I don't know, you know, you seeing the enemy a little more kindly than we would like to see the enemy.
[00:26:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
What about this? What about that?
[00:26:45] Speaker A: Right, right. So there's. Those dynamics can make it a little challenging if you want to build bridges because, you know, we are so rooted into our, you know, tribalism.
You gotta hate everything about them or you gotta dislike everything about them. But really, people are complex and nuanced, and they are more. They are more than a position or particular view or what have you. It is more to their experience and who they are. So that's a guiding principle as well that I think can help if we remember that people are more than, you know, what they think or what they say or where they're at at this juncture. There's more to them.
[00:27:26] Speaker B: Yes.
How does your faith sort of play into all of this, too? You know, you mentioned that you had a christian upbringing. How does that sort of play into how you approach your music and your work and sort of your outlook?
[00:27:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. You know, faith is a very integral part of what I would argue, the human experience.
I believe we are. We are spiritual beings and we are embodied in physical.
In the physical plane. And for me, you know, faith gives me a sense of hope. Right. My christian faith kind of reminds me of some. Some very critical principles, if you will, that helped me navigate life. And one of them being that I am not it, you know, the world doesn't stop at parfait. Right. So there's a degree of humility that it confers in me that allows me to, on multiple levels, you know, whether when there's harm caused to me, you know, being able to remember that the bus doesn't stop at parfait, and there's, you know, there's, you know, divine justice and things. Things that fall outside of my scope and that that can be right. It rited out over time. So I don't have to be the one who, you don't have to hold people accountable, even though I will have those hard conversations if needed. But just a degree of, there's things that I can control and there's things outside of my control. So a degree of humility, another thing that my faith has done in helping me navigate all these things around bridge building, is just a reminder that when I think about the. The christian tenets, which is the notion of an all knowing, all powerful, all loving God who would not stop at anything but choose to incarnate in human form in order to have relationship with humans, right. This idea of leaving wherever, palace, heavenly throne, right. Cosmic throwing his hat to come down and meet and relate and be proximate just kind of reminds me of how that's important in human relationships, forgetting how important I am or I think I am in order to meet people where they're at. Because ultimately it's about relating and connecting, because there's value in every other, right?
Yes. So that model or that truth, you know, keeps me, as much as I remember it, to be humble and not consider myself more important, more right, than someone else and. But more like, how can I get to know you? How. How can I understand you? How can I connect? Right. I think we are stuck in the. In the paradigm of who's right, who's wrong? And I would advance that. Really, the paradigm that we're called to is who are you and what's your story?
And how can I understand you and how can you understand me? Again, that doesn't solve every complex problems we're dealing with, but I think it's actually a baseline and springboard to more constructive solutions when we start there about who are you? What's your story?
Help me understand.
And so, yeah, my faith plays a lot of that in shaping that lens.
[00:31:24] Speaker B: Well, it's just a. It's a tremendous example that we can kind of follow that, like you were describing, that God would take the time to get to know us or that he would leave his perfect place that he was in to come and spend a few years with us.
And, yeah, I just really think that's a terrific paradigm in terms of understanding people and taking time to look outside of and beyond just ourselves in order to understand what it's like to be someone else or to sort of gain or get a bit of their perspective, you know? Is that kind of what you do in your work?
You know, you. You've described yourself as an aspiring peacemaker.
I love that.
In a little bit more sort of detail.
What kinds of things do you do in your work in order to make peace?
[00:32:32] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. No, thank you.
You know, it's.
It varies, obviously, depending on which organization I'm engaging with. But in a nutshell, I try to create spaces where I can increase a degree of awareness about, you know, what is outside of us by telling stories. I deeply believe in the power of stories because we are storytellers. That's how we make sense of the world, right. We're constantly telling stories. And so I come into spaces and tell stories intentionally, stories that can help challenge some of the paradigms that we've been talking about here, you know, because there's nothing you can say against a story. A story is true. That's what has happened. Right. And so people are forced to contend and sit with the existence of someone's experience. And because of our silos, oftentimes there's no such proximity with people with different experiences and different stories than ours. And so I'm almost serving as a proxy connector between people's experiences across different silos. And so I share those stories, and I invite people to reflect, to sit with those stories.
And so using music as an emotional amplifier as well, I get to hopefully kind of move them into a place of deeper empathy towards other communities that they may not have been proximate with or that they may have, you know, othered, because they're this way and they're that way. Right. And so that's. That's what I attempt to do. Kind of big picture, but it can get a little more granular depending on the scope of work. Work. So sometimes workshops, sometimes it's forum conversation, sometimes more strategy planning around some more quantitative metrics for an organization in order to foster greater belonging through some programmatic means within the organization and so forth.
But the crux of it, yeah. It's storytelling. It's increasing a sense of awareness about other people's experiences, and it is providing tools for greater cross silo conversations.
Yeah.
[00:35:03] Speaker B: And you've mentioned a few times the idea of proximity.
And so tell me more about that. So, like, when I think of proximity, I think of, you know, nearness or being nearby, is it just, are you kind of leaning into the idea that if you. If you haven't been close to it, and you haven't seen it, then you can't really understand it. Or is it more than that? Like, how do you create proximity within, you know, spaces or groups of people who don't have it?
[00:35:37] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, I am alluding to that.
You know, I think there's two parts of your question. One is, you know, what do I mean by proximity and to how do you create it?
So the first. The first part of the question is, yes, there are some experiences that we can look at it from a distance, but unless we walk that journey, we really have no idea. And the closest we can get to that, the closest is if we know someone who's gone through it and we actually. In a listening posture.
Right.
To have them share their experience with us, that can get us really close to that.
You know, I often like to share the example. You know, I've been blessed and fortunate to have three amazing kids, and my wife loved her to death.
And, you know, I remember when we.
You know, I'm going to say it again here. We were expecting our first kid, right. This expression in English, when you say, we, we are expecting. I remember I would say, you know, talk to people, we are pregnant. Right. And she'll be like, don't you say that. You're not pregnant.
Right.
[00:36:56] Speaker B: I am the one who is pregnant.
[00:36:58] Speaker A: I am the one who's carrying a human being in me. Right.
[00:37:03] Speaker B: Nine months from now, you can carry them as much as you want.
[00:37:06] Speaker A: Right now. You got it. Right. And there's validity in that. There's something, as a man.
Right. I have no point of reference what it would be like to carry a baby for nine months. Right. And the closest I can get is by being close to someone putting a bowling ball in your shirt.
You can even use some simulations, certainly. Right. But it will have its limitations. Right. And so it's that proximity to that experience. Right. And so, thinking about various degrees of proximity. Right. Some of them are through storytelling. Some of that's why you have movies. That's why you have books. Right. So there's various degrees, but ultimately, you know, I would say that some of it is just being close to people who are in the other silos and building relationships. How do you do that? Well, it takes intentionality.
It takes a commitment to being uncomfortable. Right.
Yeah. It also takes a commitment to saying that it's not about me being. Right, but it's being. It's about me getting to know and understand and connecting. Right. Again, that paradigm shift.
And I know not a lot of people would agree with this, but I do think that, you know, we can seek all day long to be right and then be alone and be disconnected and fragmented. But if we were to build on, how do we get to know and understand each other at a human level and connect, then it's amazing what kind of solutions we come up with when we actually value the humanity of those we may disagree with.
[00:38:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
A commitment to being uncomfortable.
That's a really interesting phrase because, you know, I think in much of kind of everyday, well, I have an american lens from where I sit in my everyday american life. Like, I have a commitment to making myself comfortable in many ways. Like, I haven't even, like, an idea of having a commitment to making myself uncomfortable.
You know, going to the gym is a commitment to being uncomfortable.
You know, doing, you know, having a diet and exercise kind sounds like a commitment to be. To being uncomfortable for periods of time.
But what do you mean by that? In like, a social setting? Like, what more about that?
[00:39:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
Yeah, you're right. Right. You know, the american way of life has a way of putting us into the comfort chair. Right.
In a social setting. What I mean here is, when was the last time you had someone over, right. And to who may have just a total different lived experience than yours.
You know, I use the example, for instance, in our community recently, it's been about a year now, that world relief, which is a refugee and immigrant resettlement organization, they've been just doing amazing work bringing some new neighbors in our community. Right. And, you know, language is a big barrier with some of our new community members. Lived experiences, most likely. Right. And, you know, I have found myself. Right. Just challenging myself to say, you know what? I'm going to invite some folks at home and have a meal and share some awkward conversations using Google translate. Right. And being comfortable not having it all together and not knowing where the conversation might go. But just because I recognize this human and interesting value in them, I like to say everybody's an image bearer of God. And so that commitment to it's going to be uncomfortable. But you know what? That's, that will be a gift ultimately. And so by doing that, that's just one example, putting yourself in places and volunteering in places where you wouldn't go otherwise. Right.
And so whether it's, it doesn't have to be in your, your own home, but grabbing coffee with someone that you may not see eye to eye and just trying to understand, you know, what else is about them, you know, where are they coming from, what's shaping and informing those perspectives? And so all those things, intentional steps to sit across the table or be in settings that you may not be the same group think as you are. Some of the things, I mean, by a commitment to being uncomfortable.
[00:41:56] Speaker B: Yeah. What's that intention? Like you just mentioned, intentionality and going out of your way, you know, investing some energy, going out of your way to try to be with or speak with or see and understand people who are not quite like yourself. You know that. Yeah.
Wow.
This has been a really great, inspiring conversation.
I've been getting a lot out of it. Anything else that you want to kind of COVID before we sort of kind of start wrapping up?
[00:42:34] Speaker A: Yeah. No. Well, obviously, I thank you for this opportunity to have this conversation.
You know, we talked about it a little bit earlier, but I'm curious also to hear, you know, from you in terms of why this interest around bridge building. Right. And then how do you see this platform of, you know, what's worthwhile podcast, you know, helping with that bridge building effort that that is much needed.
[00:43:01] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, no, thank you for asking.
You know, here we are in another election year.
The last couple of us presidential election years have both been doozies, and here we are again. And I just am very sensitive to kind of national events that way. And I see, you know, people, from at least my perspective, people are really kind of at odds.
And I just have this sense and belief that if we took the time, like you said, to get to know each other, that we'll find that we have far more in common than we have in difference. And, you know, with this podcast, what I'd like to do is I'm reaching out to interesting people like yourself, and I want to hear their stories. I want to share your stories and find ways to have more people hear different perspectives, because I really feel like a lot of the sort of strife and attention is because, you know, people are placed at odds with each other. You know, I think it has less to do oftentimes with, you know, the true situation, and it has more to do with how people are perceiving it. And, you know, out in the media, there's plenty of reason and incentive to stir things up and to get more clicks and more attention for kind of negative perceptions. And that includes sort of how groups relate to each other and this siloing through things like social media and through the news and stuff, it just seems as bad as ever.
But I found myself asking the question of what's worthwhile?
What should I be focused on? What is worth my time and effort and consideration? You talked a lot about going out of your way to do a lot of things.
And I think that includes what do you take the time to look more closely at, evaluate, try to figure out the truth behind, instead of just what the loudest message or narrative is that's telling you? Um, so I think there's a lot of exploration out there to happen. I think the world would be a better place if people took more time to invest in the things that they really thought were worthwhile. And. And if I'm asking myself question, this question, I just figure I'm probably not the only one. There's probably other people asking themselves that questions, and I think that they should.
[00:46:12] Speaker A: Yeah, no, this, again, I can commend you for this endeavor of, I mean, the question in itself, I love it, you know, what's worthwhile, right. I remember when you told me about this and I pondered it, I was like, yes, I believe that in a very implicit way, many people are asking themselves that question, and if they're not just reading it is like, yeah, let me pause. What's worthwhile in the midst of all this noise and information and this division and so forth? But one thing that you said that I really want to. Want to highlight there, Ramsey, was this idea that, you know, if you asking yourself that question, how many other people may be asking that question? And I found this to be so true. You know, I've written songs like, you know, like we talked about and used them within context and whether at a conference or the training. And I wrote a song about my own personal story of pain and hurt. Right. In one context. And I will share the song, and then at the end of the session, a ton of people will come and talk to me and say, oh, my gosh, I still relate to that song. It's like. It's like you were telling my story. Right. It's like you were talking to me. Right. And over the years, it's just been so eye opening about how similar. Right. How parallel our stories are, but because they're not identical. Right. We miss that. We missed the fact that we experience very similar things along the lines of the human emotion. Right. Pain, suffering, loss, dreams, hopes, and so forth. Right. And so when we are able to sit, and that's one of the powerful things about, I would argue, even a podcast like this or music, there's a lot of similarities in that folks are listening, right. And they're taking it in. So there's kind of a built in suspension of judgment. Right. Suspension of needing to react right away, but just kind of taking it in and digesting it and consuming it in some ways. And I think there's value in that because we have been kind of socialized to, to, you know, to just react, you know, as soon as you're talking, I'm thinking about, you know, how I'm going to push back, right? And instead of listening to understand, we are listening to respond. And so I think it's a great endeavor to engage in this inquiry with a number of folks from the community. I think it's going to enrich the lives of people who then get to hear different stories than they may have been approximated. So thank you for doing this.
[00:49:00] Speaker B: Absolutely. It's been my absolute pleasure. So thank you so much and look forward to seeing you in real life here soon.
[00:49:10] Speaker A: This sounds good. Take care.
[00:49:12] Speaker B: Thank you for asking. What's worthwhile? Visit whatsworthwhile.net to learn more about me, Ramsay Zimmerman, and please provide your name and email to become a supporter. I'm asking for prayer, advice, feedback, and connections. The what's worthwhile podcast is on Spotify, Apple, iHeart, and Amazon. You can also
[email protected] thanks.
