Episode Transcript
[00:00:11] Speaker A: What's worthwhile considering what we consume, believe, say and do towards peace of mind, vitality of body, and joy of spirit. I'm Ramsey Zimmerman. Here's some more healthy living, motivation and discussion.
[00:00:30] Speaker B: I guess when you go through life and loss and trauma, especially as a father and a husband, you.
You just keep going. You know, you don't have time to stop because life doesn't unfortunately stop when you lose someone. It just keeps going. So you got to keep leading the family, you got to keep leading your spouse, you got to keep leading your daughter, your other kids.
And so I was just in full go mode still like, yep, yeah, we're doing okay.
All the words that I would say to make myself and others feel like were okay, but I really wasn't. I was just drowning inside.
[00:01:07] Speaker C: I know in the past when I've come back from these events, my wife has said that, you know, you're the softest I've ever seen you.
[00:01:16] Speaker D: Uh huh.
[00:01:17] Speaker C: And that's just really special and powerful.
[00:01:20] Speaker E: And I'm taking away. You know, I think I came in here thinking I really needed to reframe my relationship with my wife. And I'm leaving with I reframe my relationship with myself and how going inward is going to allow my relationships in my life to strengthen and grow in a way that will feel more organic and less contrived because it's coming from a place of truth.
[00:01:50] Speaker D: Hey there.
[00:01:50] Speaker A: It's Ramsey here. That was me and my new friends, Mike, Mike and Spencer. They shared their comments with me on the closing day of the MELD Prime Men's retreat, which we attended at Joshua Tree, California. The experience was profound, transformative, and an opportunity for us 30 or so guys to relate to ourselves and each other in ways that society just doesn't really encourage very often.
I'm eager and honored to share their thoughts and my own about the retreat. Let's dive in.
MELD stands for Men's Emotional Leadership Development.
And you may remember that I interviewed Duncan Rich of MELD a few weeks back on what's Worthwhile. MELD works with men to connect with their bodies, to experience and understand their physical experiences.
They work with men in groups because people recognize each other's physicality and we respond to each other for better or for worse. MELD encourages men to pay attention, to be present during interactions, to read and respond to body language.
And this is as opposed to moving or jumping ahead, trying to fix things like we often do.
The retreat took place in the desert adjacent to Joshua Tree National Park. I've Never really seen anything quite like that environment. It may as well have been a different planet, which seemed fitting since it was such a unique experience for those of us who hadn't done this kind of work before. We didn't really know what to expect.
Perhaps one of the first things we discovered was that we all had issues going in.
Some of these issues and what some people were dealing with were more acute and devastating than others.
Listen to what Mike had to say. You want to say your name?
Yeah, my name's Mike.
[00:03:55] Speaker D: So, Mike, what's this been like for you?
You came out here, you did this thing, and did you have a lot of expectations about what it was going to be like or, you know, what to expect, or was this. What was it like for you?
[00:04:13] Speaker B: Yeah, that's an interesting question for me, because I feel like a lot of men here knew what they were getting into, and I had zero knowledge and zero expectation. Just kind of fascinating to enter a place not knowing what you're getting into. And, yeah, I asked myself, why did I even come here, not knowing?
But I'm in a place in my life where I'm just really struggling through a lot of trauma and pain. Lost my son to suicide eight months ago, and so I'm kind of grasping for anything. And so I blindly and willingly just said, yes, I'll go to that, hoping that it would be good. And it's been transformative.
[00:04:55] Speaker D: How. How has it been transformative?
[00:04:58] Speaker E: When you. Yeah, that's
[00:05:01] Speaker D: a big question.
[00:05:01] Speaker B: A big question. Yeah, exactly. And a really good question. But I guess when you go through life and. And loss and trauma, especially as a father and a husband, you.
You just keep going. You know, you don't have time to stop because life doesn't, unfortunately stop when you lose someone. It just keeps going.
So you got to keep leading the family. You got to keep leading your spouse. You got to keep leading your daughter, your other kids. And so I was just in full go mode still, like, yep, yeah, we're doing okay.
All the words that I would say to make myself and others feel like we're okay, but I really wasn't. I was just drowning inside. And to come to a place that digs deep inside and exposes all that and works on it, that's just transformative. And it's exactly what I needed. And I didn't even know that.
[00:05:55] Speaker D: How does that make you feel kind of in your body when you talk about that?
[00:05:59] Speaker B: Yeah, it makes me step with a new step, a lighter step that's not so heavy with this significant Loss. And so it gives me, I think, a little bit more hope that I'm gonna be okay, that my family's gonna be okay.
[00:06:15] Speaker D: Yeah, that's terrific.
[00:06:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:06:18] Speaker D: And we here at this retreat, we've been talking a lot about fight, flight or freeze. And which ones of those did you, have you been experiencing in your, in your time of loss?
[00:06:33] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a unique question because I think naturally I'm, I'm a high strung guy that is just a go, go, go guy. And so I wouldn't say I'm in like fight mode when I lost my son, but I was just in full throttle forward mode because that part of my person is really good at just going and executing and getting the mission done, whatever it is. Realistically, internally I've been frozen deep down inside. Emotionally I was frozen. And that's what mattered the most. And so this allowed me to dig deeper, I think, into, to address those emotions and give them nurture, you know, and care that they needed.
[00:07:16] Speaker D: Do you feel like there's something about this experience that you've had this weekend that might be able to allow you to move forward and if so, kind of. What, what does that feel like?
[00:07:29] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's twofold for me. You know, one, there's just the self care and the self support that I've learned to identify in myself, that you need to take time with yourself and just pause and slow down, and that's hard. In a world that is consistently going forward, you're doing the opposite movement and that's hard. And it's the opposite of what I want to do in my, in my mind. But I think the other part of me that I needed is the brotherhood and the connection with other men that are going through a lot of struggles in life. Not similar. I don't think I met one other person that is going through kind of what I'm going through with significant loss of a child. But they're going through deep stuff. And in the, in the end, it's, at its core, we need each other and we need support, we need brotherhood, we need relationships. And so I, I built those here with these men through a very emotional connection.
And those relationships are strong and everlasting.
[00:08:31] Speaker D: Well, thank you so much for sharing.
[00:08:33] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.
[00:08:34] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah.
[00:08:36] Speaker A: I was really moved sitting and listening to Mike describe that.
And this idea that he expressed of life needing to move on and us needing to move forward is definitely a big one. It's one that I think a lot of men relate to.
And when we keep moving forward without really taking the time or the ability to process the experience that we're having, then we tend to get stuck in that physical experience.
So Meld's work, a lot of it is based on the physiological experience of the stress response and the three most common reactions to that. Fight, flight, or freeze.
These reactions that we have are physical in nature. In our bodies, we have increased heart rate, we have increased respiration, increased inflammation in our joints. And it calls up a physical experience or a requirement to. To express things in a physical way.
But oftentimes we're not able to continue through that physical experience because we're dealing with something that is not physical.
So if it's a difficult conversation or if it's something that we read or something that we heard, then we're not able to move through that physical experience.
Look, we all deal with stress. Stress is not the problem. The problem is that our body's innate stress response is built for physical challenges instead of the mostly mental, emotional, and virtual stresses that we face today. In my book, Stress Response, you'll learn to manage your response to stress in order to reduce anxiety, avoid burnout, and find calm and steady focus. The ebook is available on Amazon and only 99 cents for unlimited time. After you download, please don't forget to leave an honest review and rating so that others will find it too.
We're not able to move it through to completion. And so if our shoulders are hunched, if our back is tense, if our heart rate and blood pressure are out of control and they're not able to resolve and go back to normal, then our body tends to store that or it tends to re express those frequently under issues of stress. And so at Meld prime, we learned to sense in our own bodies, feel in our own bodies, the physical signs of that stress response. And we also learn to recognize those signs when we see them in others.
Take a listen to what my other friend Mike had to say about all this.
[00:11:47] Speaker D: So, hey, you want to say your name?
[00:11:48] Speaker C: Yeah, my name is Mike out of San Diego, California.
[00:11:52] Speaker A: Hey, Mike. So what's this.
What's this been like for you?
[00:11:55] Speaker D: Like, we're still in the middle of it, but what's it been like?
[00:11:58] Speaker A: Has it been. Did you kind of know what to
[00:12:00] Speaker D: expect, or was this, like, completely different or what do you think?
[00:12:04] Speaker C: Yeah, I've been to a couple of variations of these, and.
And it's just been absolutely transformative. This is by far the most comprehensive and deep dive that I've been into.
You know, four days, 25, 30 guys a depth of connection and vulnerability unlike anything you've ever seen in real life traditionally. And to be able to see a variety of men, different backgrounds and all of our different things that we carry with us, to be able to come together and really see each other and hold each other and heal.
By far one of the most transformative experiences of my life. And I, I'm, I'm gonna come to the next one and continue on this journey and yeah, it's been, it's been amazing.
[00:12:59] Speaker D: What do you think might be different from. For you, like, when you go back home? Like, what do you think might feel different or you know, how you sort of interact with people? Like, what do you think might be different?
[00:13:12] Speaker C: You know, something I brought with me and I've carried with me my whole life is as a lot of intensity and an unknowing of how to handle that intensity.
So coming here and being able to recognize and see that as like a superpower of mine and a gift that I can wield in such a powerful way.
So to answer your question, I know in the past when I've come back from these events, my wife has said that, you know, you're the softest I've ever seen you.
[00:13:44] Speaker D: Uh huh.
[00:13:44] Speaker C: And that's just really special and powerful.
To be able to show up and try to hold and witness others and create safety and space and starting with an awareness of my own body and recognizing like how I'm reacting emotionally, like physically first before tapping into how I can respond. And often it's not necessarily a matter of responding, just holding space and acknowledging what's there.
[00:14:13] Speaker D: Yeah, because we, we respond really quickly a lot of times, don't we? It's like, especially us guys, it's sort of like a reflex action of something coming at us and then we either deflect it or hit it back or protect ourselves, but it's different. Like, what is this thing that we call holding space? Like, what does that even mean to you? What does that. Do you have a grip on what you mean by that concept?
[00:14:40] Speaker C: I've said it a couple times, but like, it's almost like a witnessing. Holding just to see and to. Just to hold the space, not fix.
[00:14:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:49] Speaker C: Which I traditionally want to do. I got a toolbox full of things I can offer you to fix whatever you got going on. And I can't even fix the stuff going on with me.
And so that, you know, the holding space, I, I would define it as just like witnessing and holding.
[00:15:05] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah.
[00:15:06] Speaker A: I've been, I've been learning about that too.
[00:15:08] Speaker D: And it's like just being present, being there, and not moving on to the next thing until this current thing is sort of addressed or sort of worked through or, you know, resolved.
[00:15:26] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:15:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Cool.
[00:15:27] Speaker D: Anything else you want to share?
[00:15:29] Speaker C: I encourage any man out there listening to, to dive in and give yourself an opportunity to be a positive ripple in your life and others.
[00:15:38] Speaker D: Absolutely.
[00:15:39] Speaker A: Me too.
[00:15:39] Speaker C: Thanks, Ramsey. Appreciate you.
[00:15:41] Speaker A: Mike mentioned his intensity and also how he relates to his wife.
You know, I think that relating well or relating better with and to our spouses was probably the number one goal or priority of the guys there.
You know, in a, in a stressful conversation or discussion, several things are going on at once.
People are feeling their own stuff, they're experiencing their own emotions, and they're also feeling and responding to their partner. And oftentimes this is not even conscious or people are not even aware of that. We respond to our partners and how they are acting, how they are feeling. So if one of us is getting amped up, it tends to amp up the other, which often makes situations spiral.
Here on what's worthwhile. We've spoken a lot about burnout and why it's important to avoid it. So now let's do talk about burnout resilience. Burnout resilience is your capacity to handle stress without losing your clarity, your energy, or your sense of purpose. It is the ability to recover well, stay steady under pressure, and keep moving forward when life gets demanding. And the good news is it can be built by strengthening the foundations of holistic health. I created the Burnout Resilience Zone assessment to help you see where you stand and where which foundations may need attention. It takes just a few minutes and gives you a personalized breakdown with clear recommendations. Go to burnout.whatsworthwhile.net and learn which zone your burnout resilience is in.
However, the opposite is also true. Which means that one of us in a conversation can actively try to be more calm and this will actually help to calm the other person. We call this regulation being able to control our own nervous system response. And therefore, if we can self regulate, we can also co regulate, which has to do with people taking their cues from each other. And you know, in those times, those conversations, those difficult experiences that we have with our spouses, we can take the opportunity to hold space, to not move on quickly, to not try to move forward, but instead to take the time to enter the moment.
If our partner is in a hole of despair, we can choose to crawl down into the hole with them. Even if it's just for a little while before both of us crawling back out of it. You know, it's totally a cliche that men often want to immediately fix things, but the women in our lives, they just wanted us to listen. And it's often a concept that guys don't necessarily really clearly understand.
However, through meld, guys are learning what they really mean, what that really means, and how to do it. Let's hear what my friend Spencer has to say about all this.
You want to say your name? Sure.
[00:19:23] Speaker E: I'm Spencer, and I'm 38 years old.
[00:19:28] Speaker D: So, Spencer, what's this been like for you? Like, here we are, we're doing this.
[00:19:35] Speaker A: This experience. Was it sort of what you expected,
[00:19:38] Speaker B: or was it kind of completely different?
[00:19:40] Speaker D: What's it. What's it been like?
[00:19:43] Speaker E: Great question.
I didn't know what to expect.
It's my first kind of men's retreat of any kind.
You know, I've been in therapy.
You know, my wife does a lot of retreat and spiritual work. So I. I feel like I was, like, tangentially involved, but this was a whole other level. It was really empowering and humbling just to see all these other men.
It really kind of reframes just how I look at men in general. Like, the weight that everyone is carrying.
It was overwhelming at parts, but there was, like, a real beauty in that.
And I'm. I'm taking away. You know, I think I came in here thinking I really needed to reframe my relationship with my wife.
And I'm leaving with.
I reframe my relationship with myself.
And how.
How going inward is going to allow my relationships in my life to strengthen and grow in a way that will feel more organic and less contrived, because it's coming from a place of truth that I was able to find.
And it just feels really good. You know, it was really nervous and scary to get here.
Night one again, like, you know, pretty intimidating. 30 strange men. Yeah, you know, it was a lot. But over the course of, really softens and the connections you make are really, really powerful.
[00:21:34] Speaker D: And do you feel like, you know, are men generally encouraged to do this kind of thing or how is the. This, like, completely different from, like, how as men, we sort of relate to each other typically in sort of this society that we. That we live in?
[00:21:57] Speaker E: I think traditionally, you know, no, it's been kind of a taboo.
I think that that's shifting.
You know, I know, like, I'm thinking about in my friend group, you know, years ago, this would. It would have Felt like the most dangerous social thing to say, that I went and did this.
And now I'm more thinking about, like, you know, there's like, one or two guys who I think could really benefit from this, you know, and I. I feel safe and strong enough to just kind of potentially, you know, just share my experience and see if it resonates. And then, you know, I.
I would never want to push this on anyone, but there's value in it. And I think that hopefully, you know, those. Those stigmas are.
Are becoming less stringent. But, you know, I know that's a tall ask.
[00:22:51] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:22:53] Speaker D: What do you.
What do you maybe hope will be different for you after you sort of get back into the real world? How do you think this might impact sort of how you relate to people and, you know, in your relationships and things like that going forward?
[00:23:14] Speaker E: You know, I hope it makes it all great, but I, you know, this is.
The feeling I'm having right now is a feeling that I really hope that I can take with me and apply.
You know, it's going to start.
Start with my primary relationship with my wife. And I think it's going to.
You know, there are times when I. I feel like I turn away from her if she's triggered or, you know, upset, and I. I hide from that instead of using it as an opportunity to connect a realization. I kind of went through this this weekend. Was that, like, I feel like we're probably. I'm missing out on some of the beauty of our relationship because I'm. I'm pulling back.
Instead of being curious and leaning in like this, this weekend has really helped me. Like, you don't need to be afraid of that discomfort. You don't need to be afraid of those big feelings. Like, lean into that. Be curious, explore.
Because when you pull away, it's. It's a denial of connection. You know, that's. That's not what I want for my marriage.
[00:24:29] Speaker A: Anything else you'd like to. Anything else you'd like to share or say?
[00:24:34] Speaker E: No.
It was great to meet you here, Ramsey. You know, I was. I'm glad I did it.
And I would recommend to, you know, any man who's. If this pings for them, it's because your mind and body knows that you need something, and I would recommend it.
[00:24:54] Speaker D: That's great.
[00:24:54] Speaker B: Thanks.
[00:24:56] Speaker A: Spencer mentioned the first night.
Yeah, it was super intense. I have to say. The first night at Meld, they had the mother of all icebreakers.
I won't tell you exactly what happened, but let's just say there Was no ice left in that room. You know, we walked in perfect strangers and perfect strangers, God, that's a really interesting concept. And I don't know if, if anyone ever intended to mean it this way, but someone that you don't know at all, in some ways is perfect to, you know, begin to explain and express things within yourself that are really difficult to tell acquaintances.
If you have someone that you're concerned about what they'll think tomorrow or how they'll treat you a week from now, that's not perfect. But if there's a stranger, someone that you just met and is not in, you know, the day to day of your life, that kind of, that person is kind of perfect to tell things. But we did have exercises that first night where we looked deeply into each other's eyes and we started talking about deep stuff.
And that's something that, gosh, we hardly do with people that we know, but we certainly are not in the habit of doing that with folks that we just met. During those interactions, we definitely began to feel and observe physical changes, physical reactions within our bodies.
So the next morning, you know, the stage was set for some deep work. In a lot of the exercises, we got to split up into triads, which was a facilitator, a participant, and an observer.
And in those small groups of three, we talked through difficult memories.
We felt and observed what it was like to feel those things in our bodies. We held space for each other, took the time to listen and hear, seek to understand those experiences one to the other. And we also, you know, felt echoes, memories, reflections of what it was like to be in those difficult situations. They were mild versions of the actual events, but they were powerful. It gave us a chance to feel and express those emotions all the way through to completion. And I think that's really the key, so that we could shake them off or push through them all the way and therefore be able to get back to a more relaxed version of homeostasis. We also spent a lot of the time that afternoon meeting and talking in groups of five or six.
We talked through a lot of our issues, things that are important places where we might be stuck.
And I talked through a lot of things.
I haven't really been through therapy myself, so I kind of feel like I did go through some version of talk therapy. Even though this was mostly focused on the physical expressions. We all took the time to establish a work statement, which was basically a statement of what it is that we are and should be and what we should grow into.
My work statement was, I am an anomaly. You know, I don't fit neatly into a box, and the groups that I've been in, I haven't felt like I completely relate to the folks in those groups. And that's difficult if you're trying to fit in. But part of what I discovered is that I tend to move in different circles. And because I can do that, I can also kind of walk across worlds. I can see different perspectives. I actively try to seek out and see different perspectives, which I think is a good thing. But I've also discovered that I tend to throw people for loops. In other words, I tend to challenge their worldviews, even if perhaps that was not invited. And that's not always comfortable or easy. But I feel like I should embrace that, and I feel like that is something that I've been doing through the what's Worthwhile podcast. I have a lot of different kinds of guests on who talk about a lot of different kinds of things, and I really haven't constricted myself or the content into tight, neat boxes, but instead into just a few different circles.
So my hope is that as I move forward personally and also as this podcast moves forward, I hope that you can benefit from the different perspectives of things that people talk about here on the podcast. With respect to Meld and Meld prime, the experience was amazing and transformative and I'm still even now integrating what I learned. But I do know this. We may have walked in as perfect strangers, but we walked out with 30 plus new friends.
That was amazing.
And for today, that is enough.
Ready for more? Visit whatsworthwhile.net to listen to podcast episodes. Master your response to stress by reading my book Stress Response, available through Amazon, or to get better before burnout sets in by requesting the free guide. Regardless of where you are in your journey company, I'd love to hear from you and talk about how we might move forward together.
Please contact me, Ramsey Zimmerman through the website or on social media like Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn or X. Thanks.
