Discussion: Rita Naomi Moran, Integrative Wellness

[00:00:11] Speaker A: What's worthwhile? It's a question we all need to answer for ourselves. I'm Ramsey Zimmerman. As for me, it's building mind, body and spirit wellness. Let's ponder the big questions together as we seek peace of mind, vitality of body, and joy of spirit. [00:00:38] Speaker B: No matter where you go, you're bringing your issues with you. There's really no escape. You know, you can go live in a tent and go live away from society, but you're going to bring whatever internal demons you have with you. So it makes sense to have a steady, for me at least to have a steady practice of yoga, meditation, some way of grounding myself so that I take that with me wherever I go. For me, every person is a sacred representation of God. For me, my job is to help them touch that, you know, and I have this toolbox. And usually it works to help reduce pain. Sometimes being more aware can temporarily give you more pain, but then it releases itself. I would say that we're still in the thicket, but there is light coming in through the trees. In 2025, I do feel the presence of light in my intuitive self. I very clearly saw almost like a thicket of thorns and light coming, being able to come in sunshine. [00:01:46] Speaker A: Hey there. It's Ramsay here. That was Rita Naomi Moran. Rita is a healer, a physical therapist, and a lymphatic therapist. With more than 30 years of combined experience, Rita has also traveled with her son to nearly 300 national parks where they both learned connection and integration with nature. Today, Rita is a fellow nutritional therapy student, and we spoke a lot about being in touch with natural rhythms and flows, how we all experience shared trauma during the COVID years and how we feel like things are beginning to change again, hopefully this time for the better. This was a wonderful spiritual, inspiring and moving conversation for me. I hope you will enjoy it too. Here it is. Hey, Rita. How are you doing today? [00:02:32] Speaker B: I'm doing well. Thank you for having me here, Ramsey. [00:02:36] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much for coming because so you and I were classmates in our nutritional therapy program, and we're also in like the small group class together. And it just seems like every time that you open your mouth and make a comment, you say something really surprising and interesting to me. So I wanted to talk more. You know, so far I've learned about you that you are a healer and a really spiritual person. You called yourself a neuro nerd for some reason. You've traveled to over 300 national parks around the world, and you said you like to dive into a different Topic rabbit hole every two years or so. So I hardly know where to start, but why don't we just start with today? So why are you studying nutritional therapy and how does that fit in with the other modalities that you already use? [00:03:44] Speaker B: Well, yeah, it's been a long journey getting to nutrition. I think that my overall mission in my life has been to reduce suffering in some capacity. And as a result, I've studied different modalities related to the body because I found that, at least within my spiritual life, that if the physical body isn't taken care of, there's not a container for the spiritual life to flow and it can get distorted in certain ways. So for me, nutrition is the last frontier. It's its own national park, as it were, just full of potential and full of nature, really. So it just seems like a natural place for me to be. [00:04:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Well, tell me more about your practice. So do you work with. Do you work with groups? Do you work with people one on one? What kinds of things do people have in mind? What kind of issues do you work with them on? What's that like? [00:04:55] Speaker B: Yeah, I. I started actually in massage therapy a very long time ago, 30 years ago. And then I ended up going to graduate school for physical therapy and working for a neuroscience lab with Navy. And so the population of people that I've been working with has changed over the years. But I do work with groups and I do work one on one. But I started out doing one on one for about 20 years, and I spent 10 years working with breast cancer. And I would say that most of the work I do is with the lymphatic system. I really have enjoyed working in women's health, but that's not my primary specialty. I like to refer out for that. But for the most part, I work with edema and the lymphatic system and the flow of water and energy in the body. [00:06:00] Speaker A: Flow of water and energy in the body? Yeah. [00:06:03] Speaker B: Which means everybody. [00:06:07] Speaker A: Because we all have energy and water in our bodies. [00:06:10] Speaker B: Exactly. I mean, like the gateway might be an orthopedic injury, but, you know. And then I'll teach yoga. I'm a yoga teacher as well. So, you know, that's kind of the. I often start with movement, literal physical movement to help people move better. And then it becomes a gateway to, well, how's your life going? Because they're interconnected, right? [00:06:37] Speaker A: Yeah. Tell me more about how they're interconnected. What is it about the movement and flow of water and energy in the body that's so Significant, do you think? How about that for a big question? [00:06:52] Speaker B: I know. I love that question, though, because I think that I ask myself that every couple of months, at least every two years, because that's when I start to go down another rabbit hole of learning. [00:07:07] Speaker A: Right. [00:07:08] Speaker B: Modality. I think that how that's all related is related developmentally where you are in your life, for instance, you know, whether you're a teenager versus in your 20s or, you know, so there's a developmental stage to that. And I also think there's, you know, the environment that you might be living in. So I guess I'm not really answering the question, but they are related individually to the person, and I suppose I try to tease what that is when I see somebody. So I can't really. I wish I could give, like, some kind of magic answer to that, but I do think it's a highly individual connection, if that makes sense. [00:08:01] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, do you feel like. Do you find that a lot of people are, like, have blockages that are. That are blocked in. In terms of their flow of either water and. Or energy? Like, is that part of what you're trying to figure out is if it's not flowing correctly and sort of how to make it flow correctly? [00:08:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I tend to see fairly complicated issues with people. They may have started with an orthopedic injury and then they ended up with fibromyalgia, or they ended up with maybe a more chronic illness that showed up. And so I will sit with them first just to understand a little bit more about what's going on in their life. But just from a straight physical standpoint, if you think of. Are you familiar with fascia? [00:08:55] Speaker A: No. Tell me more about that. [00:08:57] Speaker B: Okay, so fascia is a network of tissue that surrounds the. It gives muscles shape, and it connects muscles to the skin, which is the largest organ in the body. But it also is a communication network that most people don't really know about. Water is its primary transmitter. It's supposedly much faster than the nervous system. Somebody might present to me with leg edema, and it can be for a primary diagnosis, like lymphedema, or it can be for a secondary diagnosis, which has more to do with a chronic illness of some kind. And, you know, you can map that area, meaning you can put your hands on the leg, but you can often release edema in the rest of the body, including the leg, when you're up at the neck or at the. At the chest. So I'm doing kind of a mapping of the body when I See them. And when you release some of these fascial adhesions. And just to give you an idea, if you think of Saran Wrap and the Saran Wrap gets wet, it does not move easily, so it binds down and so those areas become stuck and it can create muscle spasm, muscle tissue issues, and then it can also affect the brain and how well you think. So there's a whole lot there I could talk about, but for the most part, if someone comes in, I'm talking with them, but I'm also sensing and feeling. And if I'm doing a long distance session, then I will have people map with me so they can sense and feel their body and then I teach them to release that as well. [00:11:03] Speaker A: And what are they, what are those practices sort of based on? Around modalities or traditions or. [00:11:15] Speaker B: Well, I have my own twist on that, I guess. [00:11:19] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. What, what did you twist? [00:11:23] Speaker B: Well, so there are several wonderful teachers of lymphatic therapy that are here in the United States and here and also in Europe. And I'm happy to list those out at some point. But for me personally, I found over the years that I also. Physical movement is really important, as well as awareness of the body. And through my travel in the national parks and doing my own healing work outdoors, I came up with this healing modality. I call it Naomi. Healing Naomi is part of my name. But it's the idea that when we learn about nature, our inner nature, but also being outdoors and how much it can heal ourselves. So there's awareness, there's observation, there's movement and time to integrate. So for me, that's different than a regular typical lymphatic session where the focus is pretty physical. We're just working on releasing fascia. I'm looking at more of a whole container, holistic container, in terms of connection to the outdoors and connection to inner nature. [00:12:44] Speaker A: And did you discover that while you were on your trip to national parks, or did you go off on the trip to national parks because of that theory? [00:12:53] Speaker B: No, I discovered that when I was pretty much living in a tent for eight months with my son. [00:12:59] Speaker A: Tell me more about that. What was that like? Why did you guys decide to do that? [00:13:04] Speaker B: Well, we're living. We have a home in the suburbs of Washington, D.C. area and it's a pretty stressful environment. And I think if there's one thing, I noticed that in traveling to 49 states and five territories of the United States, that everybody has stress. But that was our launching pad. I was trying to help my son who had A lot of chronic infections. I was very stressed out and just. I just needed a break. So we ended up in the Tetons. I'd never been out west to that area of the country. And through a series of interactions with park ranger. There was one park ranger in particular that really helped us in Yellowstone. And she said, you know, Rita, there's this whole program we have here in the national parks called the Junior Ranger Program. And so I ended up talking to my husband and he, you know, he noticed a big difference in my son after four weeks of being in a tent outdoors. And he was like, okay, go ahead. You know, so the two of us, I'm summarizing a very lengthy conversation. [00:14:20] Speaker A: Sure, sure. [00:14:21] Speaker B: But we ended up going out on the road for 18 months. But the first eight months we went to, I think, 15 national parks. I tend to spend a week in each place that we go. So we're not rushing sometimes more than that. And by living and being outdoors in that tent full time, we both just. And being outdoors, exposed to the elements, learning how nature works, learning our response to what's happening, learning how to be prepared. There's so many things about it that just were so instructive about healing for me and I think for a lot of people from. Based on the many, many conversations we've had around the campfire. [00:15:11] Speaker A: How was it different in terms of living in a tent instead of living inside of a building? [00:15:20] Speaker B: Wow. Yeah, that's. There's. I mean, there's the obvious, right, that if you're, you know, in, in the Tetons in July, you can get. You can. You have an 80 degree, very hot day and several minutes goes. Goes by and it can be hailing and the temperature drops 40 degrees. So that element of protection is not the same. You become more deeply aware of what is happening around you. And there's also. The sounds are different. You know, we can hear rustling in the. In the trees, we hear birds. When we first wake up, we can smell a bear. You know, so there's like this. Your senses are maybe the way to say it is when you're living in a house, your senses almost become more dull and you start to become so comfortable that there's almost a disconnect from what's happening around you. And it also, for me, it seemed to cultivate compassion, not just with myself and my son's process, but also with the natural elements around me. So, I mean, I didn't take any. There were times when I would get shelter. In fact, that's why I ended up buying a van after eight months because we just needed more shelter. And as somebody who was homeschooling my son, I needed to have. It was a little stressful having to pitch a tent and find the right place and, you know, that kind of thing, so. [00:17:19] Speaker A: Well, that sounds really amazing in terms of having that connection to the elements and having, you know, the changes in the environment and temperature and the air directly affecting you, because, like you said, I think we're pretty insulated and isolated, literally and figuratively, kind of when we live indoors. Was it. Was it really different? Did you have sort of a. Was it difficult to get back into a more traditional indoor lifestyle? Was there, like a shock, you know, heading in the other direction for you at kind of when you came back? [00:18:04] Speaker B: Yeah, there's always a little bit of a shock. But I think there are a couple of things that help us, and one of them is we live around the rhythm of the sun. And so we try to. When we were outdoors, and you're almost forced to, unless you decide to have electricity, you go to bed when the sun goes down. But. Yeah, I'm sorry, I can't remember the question we were talking about. I was starting to think. [00:18:38] Speaker A: No, we were talking about that transition of going back to civilization, quote, unquote. [00:18:44] Speaker B: Yeah. So there's. There are a couple of parts of that that I've found helped. We have a steady rhythm when we're outdoors, and we try to have that when we're indoors, so that stays the same. Also having the recognition that no matter where you go, you're bringing your issues with you. There's really no escape. You know, you can go live in a tent and go live away from society, but you're going to bring whatever internal demons you have with you. So it makes sense to have a steady. For me at least to have a steady practice of yoga, meditation, some way of grounding myself so that I take that with me wherever I go. And then there's also the recognition that it takes a little bit of time. We recognized early on that in meeting, forming connections with people in our journey, and we often form deep connections with other families. We ended up traveling with them. We had to take time to adjust, and so we always would take several days. And one thing that my son and I would do is we listened to stories. We listened to these epic fantasies. I don't know, like, we just. It progressively got. The stories progressively got more complicated as he got older. So we're big fans of Brandon Sanderson now. [00:20:15] Speaker A: Sanderson. Oh, so good. [00:20:17] Speaker B: It's so good. Right. So, you know, and if you're listening to these stories and you're looking and you're driving between glaciers and you're, you know, like, it just is awesome. So when we come home and we have those same stories, it kind of, you know, there's kind of that connection. Does that make sense? [00:20:36] Speaker A: It sort of brings you back to that place. [00:20:38] Speaker B: Right, right. But there's also kind of like the. Oh, yeah, we're here and we're also there, and that's okay. [00:20:47] Speaker A: I listen to a lot of audiobooks, and I listen to them when I'm doing work or doing chores or when I'm working on construction projects. And there are certain books that I think of, and I can immediately remember exactly what I was doing during that project. Is that kind of the thing you're talking about? [00:21:05] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. We. We had one time where we were driving. This was right before COVID and we were taking a ferry from British Columbia, Port Rupert, through the Southeast Passage of Alaska. We pitched a tent on the deck of this ferry for five days. But to get there, we listened to the Fablehaven series. And driving through British Columbia with these amazing mountains and trees and lush forests and salmon jumping in the river, and we're listening to these demons and goblins. [00:21:45] Speaker A: And it just fits. It just fits. Yeah. [00:21:51] Speaker B: So great. Yeah. [00:21:53] Speaker A: Oh, that's tremendous. [00:21:55] Speaker B: Is there something about what I have been talking about that remind you a spiritual process that you've been through? I'm curious about what was intriguing you about some of my journey. [00:22:12] Speaker A: Yeah, well, so my journey. My journey is from sort of looking really normal on the outside and pretending that I was really normal all the time, to trying to kind of come to terms with having different ideas about how the world works and how to, I guess, talk about it out loud or admit to the rest of the world that I think things don't work exactly the way that kind of everyone thinks that they do. And so, you know, I'm. In terms of, like, the nutritional therapy stuff that we're doing, that's like the most sort of tangible element of kind of mind, body, spirit connection and wellness that I could think of. And that's something I can sort of wrap my hands around, and that's why I'm really interested in it. But I'm also just really interested in a bigger mind, body, spirit connection and holistic health kind of approach. And I certainly, you know, over the last few years, have been trying to learn about energy flow and energetics, you know, within myself and within people and between and among people. So I'm pretty interested in that. And I'm interested in things like sound and frequency and you know, things like chakras and traditional Chinese medicine. And just I have been learning about a lot of that stuff and sort of beginning to dig in and trying to see how it all fits together. And I, I have this whole, well, I've always been very mission driven in my profession and my profession has always been in sustainable energy, renewable energy, energy efficiency, green building, that kind of stuff. And it, it, I feel like in many ways those things have become accepted practice. Like we've succeeded in a lot of ways to promote those kind of alternative and better practices related to the built environment. And so now I'm sort of taking that same interest and trying to apply it to kind of the human, human health and wellness and interconnections between and among people in the sense that, you know, there is a different way or a better way or a healthy way or a sustainable way for people to interact. And that's really kind of what I've been trying to sort of unpack over the last couple of years. And so like, I really enjoy talking to people like you who also, you know, I, I, I, I've been down my share of rabbit holes, right. And you know, people who are just really curious about things and who don't things, who don't take things at face value, I think really kind of call out to me. So I think that has a lot to do with why and how, you know, I was kind of drawn to you and reached out to you. [00:25:49] Speaker B: Well, it's interesting listening to you because the thing that's really sticking out to me is, is the, what feels like the conversational element that you have towards the inquiries that you've made in your life, you know, around health and the environment. So I was in particular struck by when you were talking about how the way you're experiencing the world and the way the world is expressing itself seems to be not at odds, but just, it's a different, it doesn't seem like what's real is necessarily being expressed. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that just sounds, that's what I'm resonating with. [00:26:37] Speaker A: I think that's pretty close. Do you feel that way? [00:26:40] Speaker B: Well, I, yeah, I think that was part of what I was connecting with, that I think that, you know, I, in my early life, my spiritual journey was around more black and white type of highly structured modalities. Like, you know, I was raised a Catholic and Then born again Christian and then, you know, just more. And then I started studying Buddhism and then going out into the national parks exposed me to so many different ways that people connect with their God or their sense of spirituality, and also to their inherent value and why it is that they're even there. So. [00:27:40] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I feel like God is a really big God, kind of by definition. [00:27:47] Speaker B: Yes. Right. [00:27:50] Speaker A: And so it makes sense to me that people would sort of find so many different ways to think about and connect with God. And I just feel like, I mean, I believe that, that God is the creator of the universe. And if he's the creator of the universe, he's certainly capable of interacting with people in many, many different ways. [00:28:12] Speaker B: Right, yeah. And also how that translates into helping people heal. Because I, I, I think that the one thing that's been clear to me is I'll jump. Initially, when I was a lot younger, I would jump into a modality thinking this is it, because I've seen how it really helps somebody and there's a lot of merit to. For instance, I have several friends who are acupuncturists and they've done amazing work with people. I study with people who have made such a huge difference in different people's lives. I've been blessed that way. What I found in my personal journey is that when I see people, at least that I'm holding the container for the potential of the person to find that wellspring of health for themselves. And so somebody told me once, 20 years ago, oh, well, you're, you're the Jack of all trades, master of none. And wow, kind of harsh. Thanks, Ologist. And she really felt like reflect reflexology was the solution. And I really took it to heart, though, because I wanted to make sure that I wasn't just, am I just, you know, glossing over the surface of this, what, what is healing and what does this mean? But I, I found that for me, every person is, is a sacred representation of God. Me, my job is to help them touch that, what in whatever, you know, And I have this toolbox and usually it works to help reduce pain. Sometimes being more aware can temporarily give you more pain, but then it releases itself. So, you know, there's, there's all sorts of inquiry around that, but not everybody wants to have inquiry, so I respect that. [00:30:18] Speaker A: Yes, well, I think that, I think that so many modalities have value and maybe like the danger is when we sort of get to a place or assume that, you know, this is the ultimate answer and that it's the answer to the exclusion of other potential answers. Yeah, because it, you know, the more I learn about people and the body and the spirit and the mind, you know, the more complicated and interconnected and just beautiful and amazing it is. And I see that as, you know, God's incredible creation and how wonderful and resilient it is and interconnected it is. But I. I don't think that we can ever fully understand, like, I don't think that we can ever get. Get a complete picture and grasp of it. And when. If you sort of dive all the way into something at the exclusion of other things, I don't know, that just feels kind of like some human arrogance that we have the complete answer, because I just doubt that we'll ever get the complete answer, you know, this side of heaven and the. But instead, so many things have tremendous value, and it's in. And it seems too like a lot of the value comes in combination among. In between things, because so many things work so well together. [00:31:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I. There was a word that was coming to mind as you were speaking. Faith. Can you hear me? [00:32:03] Speaker A: Yes. Faith. It's a great word. Tell me more. [00:32:09] Speaker B: Well, I think that since COVID people have been unaware of maybe the impact within themselves around being isolated. And I feel in some ways that it created a type of trauma for some people, and it's an undigested trauma. And when people are in a traumatized place, they often will cling to a modality or a. Or maybe a practice or a belief. And there's goodness to that because it can carry you through. It's a type of faith. But where it becomes an issue is the not having the letting yourself be aware of what is arising as you're going through that. And it can be. We have a tendency in the unknown to hold on to either what we know or to hold tightly to it. And we don't allow for the unknown to be the womb, as it were, to. To allow for the dark place to help ourselves transform. And so faith. Faith is important. And faith with insight, I think is. That's part of, for me, my journey at least, you know, Christianity to Buddhism, to both, if that makes sense. [00:33:52] Speaker A: So, yeah, faith with insight. That's a really interesting phrase. So I really feel like the world kind of drastically changed in between 2020 and up through the end of last year, 2024. [00:34:12] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:34:14] Speaker A: And for me, I thought it was kind of a dark place, you know, whether it was a womb or a cocoon, you know, something of that nature. And I feel like things are Sort of fundamentally different this year. But I'm interested in your thoughts about how you experienced it or how you think the world changed between, you know, 20 and the end of 24. [00:34:46] Speaker B: Well, first I just want to say that there was a tremendous amount of very real suffering that was happening. So I don't in any way mean to undermine that event and the process and the things around that where I've noticed the change the most because maybe I'm in healthcare is in health care and doctor's offices. People are more stressed, providers are more stressed. They don't seem to have the same bandwidth. The pressure of trying to do the same amount of work is harder. And then the insurance companies are. There's just. And the people who are trying to get help are caught in between that. So there's there. I feel honestly as if there is a fundamental transformation that's happening that I don't actually, I can't really. It's my sense as a healer, like as if I was working with someone, I would feel this if the world was a body. What I experience is that there is a transformation happening and to really. And then during those periods I try to go in another direction, which is rather than trying to do more, I do less. And I try to stay within my prayer practice, try to help people, try to be a little kinder. I don't know if that's making sense, but I'm finding that a lot of people are on some level doing the opposite, you know, and I wonder to myself, is this a coping mechanism? Is this, you know, there's a type of cruelty and I think some of that is coming from that traumatized place, if it makes sense. [00:36:54] Speaker A: So. Yeah, well, I do think that it was a time of collective trauma. [00:37:02] Speaker B: Right. [00:37:04] Speaker A: And people experienced it in different ways. But I don't think anyone would dispute. I think everyone kind of feels like it was a time of collective trauma. And I think what I hear you saying is seeing it and experiencing it kind of with an open hand and realizing that there's something really profound happening and that you may not yet understand it, but you know that it's happening. And so you're sort of giving it space to happen. And I imagine that lots of people sort of didn't have that level of awareness or space or distance and they were just experiencing the trauma more directly. [00:37:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:52] Speaker A: And so at that point they probably had sort of self defensive mechanisms in place to try to survive it. [00:38:04] Speaker B: Yeah, yes, exactly. [00:38:08] Speaker A: And that's really a shame because we've been learning a lot in Our program about how we're either, you know, in a stress induced fight or flight cortisol kind of moment within our bodies, you know, or we're in a more relaxed state where we can rejuvenate and heal, but you can't do both at once. And so if you're, if you're under stress and you're under threat and you're feeling it, then your, your body is not really able to rest and recover and heal significantly. And how ironic is it that everyone was completely stressed out by this collective illness event? And what we all needed the most was to have, you know, high immune system function to, to ward off illness and to recover from it. But as a people, we were so in equipped to do that because of the state in which we were in. [00:39:16] Speaker B: Yeah. And there are actually two components to the stress response. There is the fight or flight, but there's in recovery groups we talk about also the shutdown aspect. So you can, when you're in emotional homeostasis, you have some amount of emotional regulation available to you so that you can make those decisions on your behalf, such as, oh, I need more sleep, I need to eat a little better, whatever, but you have that bandwidth. But when a system is stressed, they're either going to fight and try to escape, try to get out or lash out. You know, there's a cortisol induced response. There's also another one which is a shutdown response. And I don't think we talk about that enough, but it does create some of the same type of stress response in the body. And what I find is that people are sluggish, they tend to remove themselves more. It looks like depression. [00:40:18] Speaker A: Well, and that comes with powerlessness too. Right. And I, I'm so glad you brought that up because I think a lot of people experience that kind of during the, the shutdown phase because it's like we're stuck at home, there's nothing we can do about it. You know, there's no sort of productive strategies being recommended. In many cases it's like stay at home and wait it out. [00:40:41] Speaker B: Yeah, right. [00:40:42] Speaker A: And that's not good. Like the best response to stress is exercise. [00:40:48] Speaker B: Right. But for some people, they need community to be able to move forward. You know, they can't. It's impossible for them to do it by themselves. And you know, there was at one point I realized in all my religious investigations, I realized that every major religion has this commonality of a teacher, a teaching and the community. And the reason why that has made religion so important is because because when times of duress, there is. There are the people around them to help bring them out of those places. I'm not advocating for religion, but I just, you know, I just feel like that's a very under utilized, underutilized, at least in Western culture. [00:41:48] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I think community connections are just a very much a big part of the sort of healthy human experience. And whether it's in the context of a religious group or a family group or a community group based on, you know, proximity, like neighbors, for instance, that's really powerful. Having people that you can share with and that you can give to and and receive from. And that's another thing that we just in many ways lost when we were going through that whole thing. Do you feel like we're on the other side of it? Do you feel like we're getting to the other side of it? Do you feel that we're in something new and different as of now, or do you think we're still in the same thick of that which we were describing? [00:42:51] Speaker B: I would say that we're still in the thicket. But there is light coming in through the trees in 2025. I do feel the presence of light in there. [00:43:03] Speaker A: Can you describe the light? [00:43:09] Speaker B: Well, I, in my intuitive self, I very clearly saw almost like thicket of thorns and light coming, being able to come in sunshine. But in terms of light, I like to think of it as maybe the last trimester of a birth, if that makes sense. [00:43:29] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:43:31] Speaker B: I feel like we're in the last trimester, you know, and we're getting our bodies ready for a transformation of goodness, of something really vital to happen. So. [00:43:47] Speaker A: Yeah, well, that's really beautiful. Getting ready to sort of give birth. I feel like. I feel like people have more freedom now to question. And I think that that's really important. That's a. It's a really important step. Freedom to ask questions about how things are, how things were, how things are going to be, and also to be able to speak up and say kind of what they think, you know. And, you know, clearly things are changing very rapidly at the moment. And I'm sure some people feel like those are great changes and other people feel like they are terrible changes. But my hope is that during a time of change and upheaval, kind of gives us an opportunity to. To really think things through and to look carefully at situations from many angles and perspectives and to try to understand what the issues are deeply that are in upheaval so that we can all work together to find, you know, productive solutions. And paths forward. It's like there were a whole bunch of clamps that were clamped down, and now many of those clamps have just burst free. So what happens next? And maybe those of us who think really deeply about this stuff can, you know, really try to contribute to figuring out a productive way forward. [00:45:42] Speaker B: Can I just ask you where you see those clamps? Because I have been aware of these. I do feel there is a major transformation happening. However, I'm experiencing that independent of what I'm witnessing, for instance, in the change in government and for instance, the drilling that's going to happen in the national parks in Alaska. So I'm looking at that at the same time saying to myself, whoa, what's the illusion here? You know? [00:46:19] Speaker A: Yeah, well, so you said the removal of clamps. [00:46:24] Speaker B: So I'm, for me, I'm. I'm wondering, okay, where is he witnessing that? [00:46:30] Speaker A: Yeah, no, honest question. It's a good question. Well, I'm thinking about sort of the ability to say out loud that, you know, during the whole Covid area era, we probably didn't handle things very well. And I, I mean, I guess we, like the government, the health care authorities, really didn't handle things very well, and that the solutions that were provided to the people were incomplete at best and perhaps really not the right solutions. And then there's also clamps upon things like social media and the ability to kind of say what you think online. And if you say things that are, you know, not in line with the official story about things that, you know, those things will just potentially get censored and removed from social media altogether. Even though they were true, they just were inconvenient and didn't line up with official narratives. So those kinds of clamps. [00:47:46] Speaker B: Yeah. And I. Yes, okay. It's great you're saying this because sometimes it's very different. So I, I, if I have a person in front of me that's going through a healing crisis, and I'm aware of the changes that are happening, and yet on the outside, they still might have pain and they still might have discomfort. And there. It can. Often in Buddhism, there's this idea of the second arrow. So the first arrow is the actual situation, but the second arrow is the perception that we make of what's actually happening. So, you know, we get an injury, but then we look at the injury and we make a decision about ourselves. We make a decision about what's happening rather than the recognition of, oh, I have an injury, period. And so there is a human tendency to want to extrapolate on a situation. And so these. To me, it feels almost like a mistranslation of the transformational force that's happening. I mean, I don't want to get into politics, but from where I'm sitting, it just. It just seems like a miss. There's a miss. A massive mistransformation that's happening. And we're not. Not transformation, I miss. That's why I keep feeling like I need to take a step back and really make sure that I remember what is the illusion, you know, what is. What is really happening here? Am I still connected to people? Are people still connected to me? Do I need to take back from. A step back from social media? Yes. Do I need to take it? Okay, I can do that. But in order to prevent suffering or needless suffering or more suffering for other people, I need to be careful about also how I might be misrepresenting something. And even though the powers that be, so to speak, are doing things one way, I don't know, because I am seeing tremendous suffering, you know, like so, you know, and where is the activation in that? Where do I take action? Where is. Where is my next step to help? [00:50:26] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and there. There's no shortage and no end to ways in which there are and can be suffering. And it's not even just human suffering, too. Like, there's the. The whole natural environment and, you know, the earth as a system and all of the things that. That live upon it. You know, we're just. We're just a piece of that, you know, and currently we are very much dominating the planet. But ultimately Mother Nature is going to win if there's a contest. She always does. [00:51:20] Speaker B: I was reflecting this morning about the. There's a. In the Navajo, that there's the symbol of two triangles one on top of the other. But the points are touching, if that makes sense. [00:51:37] Speaker A: So you have kind of like an hourglass. [00:51:40] Speaker B: Exactly. And so the top. The top triangle has a dot in the center. They're called the dine. And I apologize to anyone if anyone's Navajo or knows a Navajo culture. And I don't want to misrepresent, but it just in me reminded me of what's going on, that the dot in the top triangle is of the earth. And the dot, there's a dot in the bottom triangle. I'm sorry. The top triangle is the sky, the bottom is the earth, and humanity is the two points of the triangle. But, you know, it almost feels like the triangles are reversed, you know, that people are somehow believing that that Humanity is the center of everything, and it really isn't. And that's part of the transformation. To me, I think that there are more and more people recognizing that we are the stewards, and we do need to return to this hourglass triangle that has been present here for a long time and indigenous traditions. So that, to me, is what I need to stay present in. [00:53:08] Speaker A: And that's a connection to the sky and to the earth and to the world. [00:53:16] Speaker B: Right. To the natural elements. And recognizing my own tininess in the middle of that, that how little. How unimportant I am, and yet how important I am in terms of the little steps I can take to make sure that, you know, for instance, in my food eating as quality and dense nutrition as I can and showing people how to do that, that to me is, you know, kind of our conversations coming full circle, really, to just this point of we matter in so many ways, even though we're a speck of San. [00:54:11] Speaker A: May I ask, sort of how you came to that way of thinking? Have you kind of always had that way of thinking where there's some early experiences that kind of brought you around to that in terms of, like, your upbringing or, you know, your place in the universe? [00:54:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm just. I'm contemplating the question. I mean, I think even as a young child, I had this sense of something larger. I would sleep with my Bible and I would pray all the time. But it's a little bit deeper than that because I had tremendous amount of pain as a child. I grew up in a military family, and I was surrounded on military bases with kids whose. And my dad, too, was deployed at a crucial time in my life, I was surrounded with a type of conversation that wasn't happening. You know, that there are people being killed and the people who are doing the killing are suffering and the impact it has on the family. Nobody talked about that kind of thing. And so my early studies when I was in college were initially in exercise physiology. But then I was offered a job at the Navy with Navy divers and an environmental health lab that focused on stress. And the primary people were still not talking about this. This was the early 90s, 91. And there was. There was just starting to be this conversation about post traumatic stress disorder and how it would show up. And the early investigations were around World War I and trench foot and how that the soldiers that would get trench foot were the ones that were severely stressed. They either had childhood abuse or they had some. Some type of component of stress that affected the nerves so much that standing in even a pool of 6 inches of water could cause these sores that they would eventually lose their foot or their leg. And so that particular journey there started me on this inquiry around neuroscience. And I was already massage school at the same time. So those experiences and also learning and recognizing that I had. I had post traumatic stress disorder. I was meeting with a therapist and I didn't, you know, they pointed it out to me and it was still in the early days. And that just kind of took me away from the more devotional type of religion because it made me recognize that my physical body might have been distorting whatever the experience was. So, for instance, a lot of religions are focused around denying the senses, and yet I needed to learn how to recognize my senses, to be able to listen to my body, to listen to when I felt unsafe to listen. And that's just been a many decade process. But so I had to kind of re. Learn or investigate the body in order to come back to my spirituality. And. Yeah, but spirituality has always been kind of the basis, I think just even as a, an early, early, my primary question always was, how do I help this person not suffer so much? [00:58:52] Speaker A: M. [00:58:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:03] Speaker A: Yeah, there's certainly. There's certainly a lot there. And I think you and I really share this desire to go down many different angles and, and look at many different things and, and, and try to find ways in which we can help other people and, you know, in ways that we're sort of uniquely positioned to do that. And. Yeah, I just want to tell you that I really would like to, you know, develop my own sort of sense and my own kind of practice, my own kind of ability to help people in the way that you have. And so it's just really, I really appreciate taking your taking the time to talk all of this through and share so much. And, you know, we're learning all about nutrition together and that'll be. That'll be our next thing. That, that we will. That we will do. [01:00:27] Speaker B: Well, we're all ultimately trying to feed our souls here, so. [01:00:32] Speaker A: Yeah, feed our souls perhaps through our mouths and perhaps in other ways. [01:00:38] Speaker B: Yeah, it's been a real pleasure to talk with you, Ramsey. I really appreciate the time and it's been wonderful to just share this with a kindred spirit. [01:00:50] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. No, hopefully, first of, first of many times and you know, if. If people are listening and if they'd like to learn more about you or learn more about what you do or get in touch with you, how would be a good way for them to do that? [01:01:07] Speaker B: I have a website. It's going to be under construction, but it's rita naomi.com R I T A N A O M I and my email is infoitanaomi.com. [01:01:22] Speaker A: Fantastic. [01:01:24] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you. [01:01:25] Speaker A: Well, hey, enjoy the rest of your day and I know we'll talk soon. And I can't wait to, you know, keep going and see where this takes you and takes us and see sort of experience as the the light continues to get brighter through the thicket. [01:01:47] Speaker B: Yes. Yay. There's hope. All the best. Thank you. Yep. [01:01:57] Speaker A: Thank you for asking. What's worthwhile? Visit whatsworthwhile.net to learn more about me, Ramsay Zimmerman. And please provide your name and email to become a supporter. I'm asking for prayer advice, feedback and connections. The what's Worthwhile podcast is on Spotify, Apple, iHeart, and Amazon. You can also [email protected] Thanks.